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so i was getting ready to publish this

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interview that i have coming up with dr

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david scrabina who actually co-wrote a

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book with the unabomber ted kaczynski

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and i was wondering does anyone even

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still remember

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that whole thing and what that's all

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about

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and then i found this ted kaczynski was

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part of the

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harvard lst studies was he yeah they

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cooked his brain

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and then he disappeared worked as a

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professor

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to earn enough money so he could buy a

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cabin and implement his plan to kill

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everybody who was involved in technology

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so he'd stop

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this takeover of the human race which

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probably is true that's one of the

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things that's disturbing is it's like

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well thought out

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and also the argument is sound

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technology will

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inevitably lead to better technology

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which inevitably leads to artificial

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intelligence

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which is inevitably going to take over

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the world okay and as much as i love joe

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rogan i gotta hate on joe rogan for the

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same thing all the time

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i mean first he's got some important

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facts wrong here right

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it's not that ted kaczynski's brain was

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fried by lsd

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whatever the hell that means it was that

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he was covertly recruited

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into an mk ultra program and m culture

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was doing all sorts of stuff

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so yeah they were frying people's brain

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quote-unquote with lsd

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but sydney gottlieb was trying to give

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lsd to everybody if you go talk to the

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people at stargate the wrong viewers

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he's like hey let's give them some lsd

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that sure as heck wasn't the only thing

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they were doing because the other thing

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they were doing is they're trying to

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build the manchurian candidate kind of

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people

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which they obviously did with sir hans

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her hand and if you don't think he can

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do that with hypnosis

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just go watch darren brown who happens

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to be a dorky

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atheist but he can still demonstrate

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that a good hypnotist

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with a good subject can do that kind of

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stuff so the fact that ted kaczynski

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comes back after his first semester at

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harvard and is a changed man

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so says his brother is what's really

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going

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on and then on top of that the other

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thing he gets wrong is this

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ultimate doom gloom technology stuff

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that's going to take over the world

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i don't know maybe but i'm not convinced

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but i hate this kind of reluctant

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acknowledgement that well ted kaczynski

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did have it right

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no this stupid serial killer didn't

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have it right but

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credit to joe rogan for putting it all

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on the table

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where would we be without the new king

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of media

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more influential than cnn fox msnbc any

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of them

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thank god joe rogan is there at least

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putting this stuff on the table

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but if we want to begin to go level

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three then well

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here's a clip from the upcoming

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interview

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the pushback isn't your intellectual

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interest in technology or the ill

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effects of technology

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it's that you kind of promoted a serial

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killer in the process of doing it

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yeah absolutely and i was always

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sensitive to that you know um

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i mean i've always spoken against it

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it's not like i'm endorsing what he did

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but on sort of on the one hand we have

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that situation on the other you know we

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have

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the manifesto and there are very strong

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arguments

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against industrial technology yeah but

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david there's a hell of a lot of room

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between throwing the baby out

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with the bath water and promoting

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ted kaczynski who again i keep saying

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serial killer and you keep saying una

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bomber whatever

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i mean he would have killed he would

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have gone on killing he planned on

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you know bombing a a commercial airliner

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if we're gonna you know we're not gonna

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promote people who've killed

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innocent people okay there's a long list

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of people who've killed

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far more innocent people than ted

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kaczynski has we don't even know the

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statistics about how many innocent

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people got killed

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by our military strikes implicitly going

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to our president

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so and no one gives that a second

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thought and we just respect him and we

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salute him and so forth whether you like

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him or not

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so one of the things i brought up to you

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in email was

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the link between ted kaczynski and uh mk

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ultra and again uh you know there's an

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interesting link here that people will

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find is the gifted child thing

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because there's a lot of these gifted

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children jeffrey epstein another gifted

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child

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steinem another

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gifted child gets pulled into

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intelligence

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programs and that kind of thing but

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certainly ted kaczynski fits the gifted

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child profile

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he goes to harvard he gets pulled into

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an mk ultra program

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run by henry miller who is good friends

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with

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sydney gottlieb who is our joseph

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mengele of the mk ultra program

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yeah so from from what i from what i

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know about the situation it's kind of a

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bogus

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cover story right so i guess i could

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elaborate on how

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i think rogan and a lot of people who

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just focus on ai strong ai is coming

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look outlook out

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is just kind of pumping up the fear

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factor and missing the larger point

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i think i hinted to it there but i

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really don't want to kind of

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side track that from this interview

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because i think it's covered

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pretty extensively in all the stuff we

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get into because the second part of this

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interview with dr scabina gets right to

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the heart

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of what joe rogan everyone else misses

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the materialism versus idealism thing

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second clip we we can move on off of

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that let's talk about pan psychism a

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little bit i don't want to get too far

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into that because

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you know the the interest level and

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patience people have for that is is

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pretty limited

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but we exchanged some emails on that i

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sent you

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my kind of go-to guy dr bernardo castro

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who's quite prominent in the

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consciousness circles and in addition to

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a phd in philosophy he has a

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phd in computer science which i think

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makes him really interesting

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and he worked at cern right so he

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understands the fundamental physics kind

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of

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thing and where we're at in

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understanding a world out there versus a

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world in here

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so you kind of pushed back and said hey

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no

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what he's talking about

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well maybe we could start there i mean

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what go ahead

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yeah well right so i i mean i i don't

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know all the details of

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of his work for example in his case i've

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read some bits and pieces i've read some

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interviews and

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a couple little snippets from from his

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books um

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but yeah i mean he portrays himself as a

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kind of an idealist philosopher

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which stands in contrast to typical

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physicalism or materialism

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right but aren't you a long way from

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materialism

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yeah i mean i agree with him i i as far

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as i know he's an opponent to

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materialism and i am too

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right and then what they really miss

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is the third part of this interview

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which is a complete channel shift as

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garbino points out because he did write

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a book called

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the jesus hoax here's that clip

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why did you write the jesus hoax so

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we're clicking we're on channel three

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now here this is

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really jumping around well i guess when

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the when i started digging into the data

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right so i started coming up with

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let's say the time the timelines right

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scholars for a number of decades and it

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took me a while to

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sort of really understand this scholars

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anthropologists

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basically and literary experts have made

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good

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new testament

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okay i like part of the story not all

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the story i don't know how anyone

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contradicts

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your read of the state of modern

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biblical slash religious scholarship

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it is abysmal for anyone who comes in

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from the outside

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a science guy a business guy like me you

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start reading what these people are

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writing and you're like

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who's minding the store in terms of

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publishing this stuff

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it's just so silly well right so i mean

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if you look at

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i mean who's doing academic work on

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christianity so

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the first in the first case they're

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mostly christians i mean this makes

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sense right i mean you're going to have

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you have

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christian schools christian universities

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christian colleges and christian

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professors and they're going to be most

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interested in the story

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they're going to do the research and the

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publication and write the books but of

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course they're

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christians so they're believing the

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story they're following they're buying

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the basic line they're basically

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believing the bible they're quibbling

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about the details and try to explain it

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okay those are a lot of clips but it's a

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good interview

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stick around my chat with david scarbena

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is coming up

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welcome to skeptico where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics

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i'm your host alex sacaris and today we

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welcome dr

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david scarbina to skeptico david is a

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professor of philosophy

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at the university of helsinki in finland

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formally before that he held positions

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at university of michigan dearborn

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michigan state go green and other

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us universities he's also the author

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of several books that i think

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are very interesting and we're going to

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talk about today

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the one i first contacted david about

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was the jesus hoax but he's the author

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of

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several other books as well and then you

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know strangely enough i ran across

284
00:09:23,670 --> 00:09:20,839
his introduction to the book technology

285
00:09:25,110 --> 00:09:23,680
slavery by the serial killer ted

286
00:09:29,030 --> 00:09:25,120
kaczynski

287
00:09:30,470 --> 00:09:29,040
which he published in 2010 so

288
00:09:32,230 --> 00:09:30,480
that's certainly going to be something

289
00:09:33,190 --> 00:09:32,240
we're going to want to talk about as

290
00:09:35,430 --> 00:09:33,200
well

291
00:09:36,389 --> 00:09:35,440
david welcome to skeptico thanks for

292
00:09:38,870 --> 00:09:36,399
joining me

293
00:09:40,389 --> 00:09:38,880
yeah hi alex thanks thanks for having me

294
00:09:42,949 --> 00:09:40,399
glad to be here a lot of interesting

295
00:09:45,829 --> 00:09:42,959
things to talk about here for sure

296
00:09:47,829 --> 00:09:45,839
absolutely so like i said i mean my

297
00:09:50,230 --> 00:09:47,839
original interest was in

298
00:09:51,750 --> 00:09:50,240
the jesus hoax because i've been doing a

299
00:09:54,389 --> 00:09:51,760
lot of

300
00:09:55,030 --> 00:09:54,399
interviews on that first century roman

301
00:09:58,470 --> 00:09:55,040
history

302
00:10:00,230 --> 00:09:58,480
and how it all rolls forward but then

303
00:10:01,990 --> 00:10:00,240
you know like i said i mean then the

304
00:10:04,310 --> 00:10:02,000
first thing i stumbled across after that

305
00:10:07,269 --> 00:10:04,320
was your thing on pan psychism

306
00:10:08,870 --> 00:10:07,279
which i think i i can't really square

307
00:10:09,509 --> 00:10:08,880
where you're coming from on that because

308
00:10:12,550 --> 00:10:09,519
i read

309
00:10:15,910 --> 00:10:12,560
like a book that you edited that sounded

310
00:10:16,710 --> 00:10:15,920
perfectly exactly like idealism and i

311
00:10:19,430 --> 00:10:16,720
sent you

312
00:10:20,150 --> 00:10:19,440
my go-to guy bernardo castro and you

313
00:10:23,430 --> 00:10:20,160
weren't too

314
00:10:25,269 --> 00:10:23,440
uh too kind to uh to his take which

315
00:10:26,870 --> 00:10:25,279
doesn't seem that different from yours

316
00:10:28,550 --> 00:10:26,880
but so that's something we might want to

317
00:10:30,389 --> 00:10:28,560
talk about pan psychism

318
00:10:32,230 --> 00:10:30,399
but the first thing i mean then i ran

319
00:10:34,069 --> 00:10:32,240
across the thing on ted kaczynski and

320
00:10:36,150 --> 00:10:34,079
i'm like

321
00:10:37,590 --> 00:10:36,160
i don't know you got you got to tell us

322
00:10:39,990 --> 00:10:37,600
i mean that's the first thing that

323
00:10:41,990 --> 00:10:40,000
people are going to be

324
00:10:43,190 --> 00:10:42,000
is going to be a stumbling block for for

325
00:10:46,150 --> 00:10:43,200
a lot of people

326
00:10:47,430 --> 00:10:46,160
why would you send hundreds of letters

327
00:10:49,829 --> 00:10:47,440
to the guy and then write an

328
00:10:53,190 --> 00:10:49,839
introduction to his book

329
00:10:55,990 --> 00:10:53,200
well right so yeah i mean each of those

330
00:10:56,949 --> 00:10:56,000
topics is a full show in itself right so

331
00:10:59,590 --> 00:10:56,959
i'm going to give you a sort of the

332
00:11:01,590 --> 00:10:59,600
short version here but basically i have

333
00:11:03,670 --> 00:11:01,600
several areas of academic interest right

334
00:11:05,269 --> 00:11:03,680
so philosophy of technology has been a

335
00:11:07,829 --> 00:11:05,279
long area of interest

336
00:11:08,790 --> 00:11:07,839
environmental philosophy philosophy of

337
00:11:10,790 --> 00:11:08,800
mind

338
00:11:12,550 --> 00:11:10,800
and then general social political

339
00:11:15,190 --> 00:11:12,560
philosophical issues and i've i've

340
00:11:17,190 --> 00:11:15,200
taught courses in all those areas

341
00:11:18,389 --> 00:11:17,200
i was a long time critic of technology

342
00:11:20,310 --> 00:11:18,399
what it's doing in the world in the

343
00:11:22,389 --> 00:11:20,320
modern world

344
00:11:24,150 --> 00:11:22,399
this goes back a long time to my

345
00:11:25,670 --> 00:11:24,160
undergraduate years at university of

346
00:11:28,949 --> 00:11:25,680
michigan

347
00:11:30,310 --> 00:11:28,959
i had a pretty prominent uh

348
00:11:32,389 --> 00:11:30,320
friend and professor there henrik

349
00:11:33,750 --> 00:11:32,399
scholamosky who was one of the early

350
00:11:35,829 --> 00:11:33,760
critics of technology from a

351
00:11:37,509 --> 00:11:35,839
philosophical standpoint

352
00:11:39,430 --> 00:11:37,519
and and he and i got to be good friends

353
00:11:41,829 --> 00:11:39,440
and we remained friends for a long time

354
00:11:42,310 --> 00:11:41,839
until his uh his death a few years ago

355
00:11:43,509 --> 00:11:42,320
but he

356
00:11:45,430 --> 00:11:43,519
really introduced me to some of these

357
00:11:46,949 --> 00:11:45,440
really skeptical views on technology

358
00:11:47,430 --> 00:11:46,959
really got me thinking critically about

359
00:11:48,870 --> 00:11:47,440
things

360
00:11:50,629 --> 00:11:48,880
introduced me to other readings by

361
00:11:53,509 --> 00:11:50,639
people like ilitch and

362
00:11:54,069 --> 00:11:53,519
mumford and jacquel and this is going

363
00:11:56,389 --> 00:11:54,079
back to

364
00:11:57,269 --> 00:11:56,399
yeah the early 80s right so it's a long

365
00:11:58,550 --> 00:11:57,279
way back

366
00:12:00,710 --> 00:11:58,560
so i had a lot of background i was

367
00:12:02,790 --> 00:12:00,720
really interested i was really sort of

368
00:12:04,790 --> 00:12:02,800
studying technical subjects at that

369
00:12:06,550 --> 00:12:04,800
point so i was i was well-versed i

370
00:12:07,990 --> 00:12:06,560
understood the mathematics i understood

371
00:12:11,110 --> 00:12:08,000
how computers work i've

372
00:12:11,990 --> 00:12:11,120
taken programming classes so i knew all

373
00:12:13,590 --> 00:12:12,000
about the whole

374
00:12:15,110 --> 00:12:13,600
sort of how technology worked at a

375
00:12:15,670 --> 00:12:15,120
pretty fundamental level and i knew it

376
00:12:22,150 --> 00:12:15,680
was

377
00:12:23,670 --> 00:12:22,160
and uh you know that went along until

378
00:12:23,990 --> 00:12:23,680
the whole sort of unabomber thing came

379
00:12:26,710 --> 00:12:24,000
along

380
00:12:27,590 --> 00:12:26,720
this was in the early to mid 90s if you

381
00:12:28,949 --> 00:12:27,600
recall

382
00:12:30,310 --> 00:12:28,959
so that was yeah kind of a whole

383
00:12:31,990 --> 00:12:30,320
interesting thing in itself you know

384
00:12:33,910 --> 00:12:32,000
where i was following his uh the

385
00:12:35,750 --> 00:12:33,920
developments and the little snippets of

386
00:12:37,590 --> 00:12:35,760
uh the manifesto that would show up in

387
00:12:38,949 --> 00:12:37,600
the newspapers from time to time and you

388
00:12:42,230 --> 00:12:38,959
get interesting little tidbits

389
00:12:43,110 --> 00:12:42,240
uh little clues about what was going on

390
00:12:45,670 --> 00:12:43,120
and then they published the whole

391
00:12:48,310 --> 00:12:45,680
manifesto in late 95 so i

392
00:12:49,910 --> 00:12:48,320
immediately got a couple of copies of

393
00:12:51,110 --> 00:12:49,920
that still have copies of that paper

394
00:12:53,430 --> 00:12:51,120
from that day

395
00:12:55,509 --> 00:12:53,440
immediately transcribed it into uh into

396
00:12:57,350 --> 00:12:55,519
a word document this was

397
00:12:58,629 --> 00:12:57,360
almost like pre-internet days and you

398
00:13:00,230 --> 00:12:58,639
couldn't get anything online so you had

399
00:13:02,470 --> 00:13:00,240
to kind of manually type these whole

400
00:13:05,509 --> 00:13:02,480
things in so i spent hours typing that

401
00:13:06,389 --> 00:13:05,519
manifesto into a word form that i could

402
00:13:07,910 --> 00:13:06,399
work with

403
00:13:10,069 --> 00:13:07,920
and then of course a few months later

404
00:13:13,110 --> 00:13:10,079
six months later he was uh

405
00:13:15,590 --> 00:13:13,120
uh arrested right captured by the fbi

406
00:13:16,870 --> 00:13:15,600
his brother turned him in

407
00:13:18,710 --> 00:13:16,880
and then we found out who he was ted

408
00:13:21,350 --> 00:13:18,720
kaczynski uh

409
00:13:23,030 --> 00:13:21,360
i was really i mean just amazing amazing

410
00:13:25,430 --> 00:13:23,040
coincidence i mean it turned out that he

411
00:13:26,949 --> 00:13:25,440
had gone to my university he got his phd

412
00:13:27,670 --> 00:13:26,959
from the university of michigan where i

413
00:13:32,949 --> 00:13:27,680
was

414
00:13:34,710 --> 00:13:32,959
mathematics my first

415
00:13:36,470 --> 00:13:34,720
graduate degree was in mathematics i

416
00:13:38,389 --> 00:13:36,480
have a master's in mathematics prior to

417
00:13:40,550 --> 00:13:38,399
my phd in philosophy

418
00:13:42,550 --> 00:13:40,560
so right i was just amazing coincidences

419
00:13:43,670 --> 00:13:42,560
to his uh to his background with with my

420
00:13:45,829 --> 00:13:43,680
own

421
00:13:48,550 --> 00:13:45,839
so later i mean so that kind of went

422
00:13:50,150 --> 00:13:48,560
away subsequently i got my phd

423
00:13:51,829 --> 00:13:50,160
completed that started teaching at the

424
00:13:53,590 --> 00:13:51,839
university of michigan

425
00:13:55,269 --> 00:13:53,600
uh one of the first things i wanted to

426
00:13:57,110 --> 00:13:55,279
do was to teach a course

427
00:14:00,870 --> 00:13:57,120
in philosophy of technology in

428
00:14:02,629 --> 00:14:00,880
particular a critique of technology

429
00:14:04,949 --> 00:14:02,639
and i quickly found out that no one in

430
00:14:06,710 --> 00:14:04,959
the whole um system had ever taught a

431
00:14:07,189 --> 00:14:06,720
course on philosophy of technology they

432
00:14:09,110 --> 00:14:07,199
just

433
00:14:10,470 --> 00:14:09,120
they had never done it so they told me

434
00:14:11,350 --> 00:14:10,480
they said yeah sure you could teach a

435
00:14:12,629 --> 00:14:11,360
class but if you

436
00:14:15,110 --> 00:14:12,639
if you want to do it you have to create

437
00:14:16,710 --> 00:14:15,120
the class from scratch from nothing so i

438
00:14:18,470 --> 00:14:16,720
said yeah sure i could do that

439
00:14:20,550 --> 00:14:18,480
so i started pulling together material

440
00:14:22,870 --> 00:14:20,560
readings historical readings and current

441
00:14:25,750 --> 00:14:22,880
readings and critical views

442
00:14:27,030 --> 00:14:25,760
about technology of course i had to

443
00:14:28,790 --> 00:14:27,040
include something on the

444
00:14:30,949 --> 00:14:28,800
from the unabomber because he was the

445
00:14:33,590 --> 00:14:30,959
most famous recent

446
00:14:34,870 --> 00:14:33,600
skeptic or critic of technology i had

447
00:14:37,829 --> 00:14:34,880
the manifesto

448
00:14:38,310 --> 00:14:37,839
but at this point this was in 2003 uh it

449
00:14:40,790 --> 00:14:38,320
had been

450
00:14:42,710 --> 00:14:40,800
a number of years since he was arrested

451
00:14:44,230 --> 00:14:42,720
he was put in jail and

452
00:14:45,750 --> 00:14:44,240
of course then he goes away right the

453
00:14:47,829 --> 00:14:45,760
media doesn't talk about him he's

454
00:14:49,750 --> 00:14:47,839
kind of lost down the memory hole and

455
00:14:50,790 --> 00:14:49,760
they never yeah you hear nothing for

456
00:14:52,069 --> 00:14:50,800
years i

457
00:14:54,310 --> 00:14:52,079
i didn't really know what was going on

458
00:14:54,710 --> 00:14:54,320
with him what his situation was was he

459
00:14:58,150 --> 00:14:54,720
well

460
00:15:00,470 --> 00:14:58,160
was he dying i i knew nothing so just

461
00:15:02,470 --> 00:15:00,480
out of the blue i wrote him a letter

462
00:15:04,550 --> 00:15:02,480
just a kind of a simple letter just said

463
00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:04,560
uh hey i'm interested

464
00:15:07,750 --> 00:15:05,760
interested in your background i'm

465
00:15:09,910 --> 00:15:07,760
preparing some material on a new course

466
00:15:12,550 --> 00:15:09,920
just curious what your thoughts are

467
00:15:14,790 --> 00:15:12,560
about the manifesto and maybe other

468
00:15:16,629 --> 00:15:14,800
other developments in the in the you

469
00:15:17,670 --> 00:15:16,639
know whatever six or seven years since

470
00:15:20,150 --> 00:15:17,680
then

471
00:15:21,430 --> 00:15:20,160
just a very simple letter was really not

472
00:15:24,710 --> 00:15:21,440
expecting any

473
00:15:26,310 --> 00:15:24,720
any answer at all uh and then yeah about

474
00:15:28,150 --> 00:15:26,320
three weeks later got a nice handwritten

475
00:15:30,230 --> 00:15:28,160
response he said thanks for your letter

476
00:15:33,110 --> 00:15:30,240
dr scrabina

477
00:15:33,829 --> 00:15:33,120
i'll follow up with a full response

478
00:15:35,110 --> 00:15:33,839
shortly

479
00:15:37,030 --> 00:15:35,120
and then about another couple weeks

480
00:15:39,350 --> 00:15:37,040
after that i got a 22

481
00:15:41,350 --> 00:15:39,360
page handwritten letter answering in

482
00:15:42,870 --> 00:15:41,360
detail all of my questions

483
00:15:44,870 --> 00:15:42,880
and that really sort of kicked off the

484
00:15:46,550 --> 00:15:44,880
process of courses there was lots of

485
00:15:48,870 --> 00:15:46,560
interesting things going on he had some

486
00:15:50,550 --> 00:15:48,880
new ideas he had some

487
00:15:52,710 --> 00:15:50,560
some new material some new essays that

488
00:15:54,230 --> 00:15:52,720
he had written in in the prison

489
00:15:56,230 --> 00:15:54,240
he had some thoughts on you know

490
00:16:00,870 --> 00:15:56,240
developments in society

491
00:16:04,790 --> 00:16:02,069
of course one thing he didn't really

492
00:16:06,069 --> 00:16:04,800
have was a was a constructive criticism

493
00:16:07,749 --> 00:16:06,079
and there was lots of things one could

494
00:16:09,509 --> 00:16:07,759
say against him and against the ideas in

495
00:16:11,030 --> 00:16:09,519
the manifesto and so i started pushing

496
00:16:12,629 --> 00:16:11,040
back on him and i'd say well what would

497
00:16:14,629 --> 00:16:12,639
you say if someone said this

498
00:16:16,949 --> 00:16:14,639
and what about this and maybe what about

499
00:16:17,509 --> 00:16:16,959
this point and then he was responding to

500
00:16:21,030 --> 00:16:17,519
me

501
00:16:22,629 --> 00:16:21,040
with his replies to my criticisms of his

502
00:16:25,590 --> 00:16:22,639
view

503
00:16:27,350 --> 00:16:25,600
in lengthy detailed letters uh again

504
00:16:28,790 --> 00:16:27,360
this was a slow process because it takes

505
00:16:29,749 --> 00:16:28,800
weeks you know for a letter to go back

506
00:16:31,430 --> 00:16:29,759
and forth

507
00:16:32,470 --> 00:16:31,440
eventually we had a lot of material i

508
00:16:33,590 --> 00:16:32,480
mean there was i could tell there's a

509
00:16:35,189 --> 00:16:33,600
lot of ideas and

510
00:16:37,110 --> 00:16:35,199
things in there and i suggested at one

511
00:16:39,910 --> 00:16:37,120
point well you know there's enough stuff

512
00:16:41,910 --> 00:16:39,920
here you could probably put out a book

513
00:16:43,509 --> 00:16:41,920
and he agreed he said yeah that's fine

514
00:16:44,150 --> 00:16:43,519
but uh he said i don't know how to do

515
00:16:45,910 --> 00:16:44,160
that i'm in

516
00:16:48,870 --> 00:16:45,920
i'm in prison and i said well i know how

517
00:16:50,790 --> 00:16:48,880
to do books i've published books before

518
00:16:52,870 --> 00:16:50,800
so i started pulling together material

519
00:16:55,110 --> 00:16:52,880
started making some contacts and

520
00:16:56,230 --> 00:16:55,120
and doing what i could to try to get get

521
00:16:58,150 --> 00:16:56,240
a book published

522
00:17:00,790 --> 00:16:58,160
and eventually it took a few years it

523
00:17:02,629 --> 00:17:00,800
was a kind of a slow and tedious process

524
00:17:04,230 --> 00:17:02,639
we had a lot of people

525
00:17:05,750 --> 00:17:04,240
that rejected us out of hand because

526
00:17:08,230 --> 00:17:05,760
they did not want to publish anything by

527
00:17:10,390 --> 00:17:08,240
the unabomber

528
00:17:11,669 --> 00:17:10,400
but some people did and we eventually

529
00:17:13,189 --> 00:17:11,679
found a

530
00:17:14,710 --> 00:17:13,199
couple of publishers there was a version

531
00:17:17,990 --> 00:17:14,720
done in europe and then a version

532
00:17:19,909 --> 00:17:18,000
in the u.s the book technological

533
00:17:21,909 --> 00:17:19,919
slavery was a result i wrote the

534
00:17:24,710 --> 00:17:21,919
introduction to the book

535
00:17:26,230 --> 00:17:24,720
and a large chunk of that book about one

536
00:17:28,710 --> 00:17:26,240
quarter of that book was

537
00:17:30,070 --> 00:17:28,720
letters to me so he taken those

538
00:17:32,390 --> 00:17:30,080
responses that he wrote to me

539
00:17:33,909 --> 00:17:32,400
and he put them all together as a as a

540
00:17:35,750 --> 00:17:33,919
whole section of the book

541
00:17:37,190 --> 00:17:35,760
and those were his responses to my

542
00:17:41,590 --> 00:17:37,200
criticisms

543
00:17:43,830 --> 00:17:41,600
okay so i'm a tech guy undergraduate in

544
00:17:45,430 --> 00:17:43,840
information systems and then i went into

545
00:17:46,150 --> 00:17:45,440
business and then i went back to get a

546
00:17:48,789 --> 00:17:46,160
phd

547
00:17:51,510 --> 00:17:48,799
in artificial intelligence and then

548
00:17:53,830 --> 00:17:51,520
started an ai company so i and

549
00:17:54,630 --> 00:17:53,840
on this show then i left and started a

550
00:17:56,789 --> 00:17:54,640
company again

551
00:17:58,310 --> 00:17:56,799
because i wanted the money and that was

552
00:18:01,510 --> 00:17:58,320
probably a good decision for me

553
00:18:03,350 --> 00:18:01,520
not for everybody but i'm well versed in

554
00:18:04,549 --> 00:18:03,360
uh in a lot of these issues that you're

555
00:18:06,789 --> 00:18:04,559
talking about

556
00:18:07,830 --> 00:18:06,799
very interested in the strong ai

557
00:18:13,350 --> 00:18:07,840
proposition

558
00:18:16,710 --> 00:18:13,360
to some very

559
00:18:17,669 --> 00:18:16,720
intelligent phd people about all that

560
00:18:20,150 --> 00:18:17,679
kind of stuff

561
00:18:21,830 --> 00:18:20,160
that i'm really impressed with but i

562
00:18:22,870 --> 00:18:21,840
think and you know i mean i don't want

563
00:18:25,669 --> 00:18:22,880
to totally

564
00:18:28,070 --> 00:18:25,679
you know kind of grill you but you

565
00:18:31,190 --> 00:18:28,080
understand the pushback the pushback

566
00:18:35,110 --> 00:18:31,200
isn't your intellectual interest

567
00:18:36,630 --> 00:18:35,120
in technology or the ill effects of

568
00:18:38,710 --> 00:18:36,640
technology

569
00:18:41,430 --> 00:18:38,720
it's that you kind of promoted a serial

570
00:18:45,110 --> 00:18:41,440
killer in the process of doing it so

571
00:18:47,270 --> 00:18:45,120
you know you understand the pushback

572
00:18:48,150 --> 00:18:47,280
well yeah absolutely and i was always

573
00:18:50,630 --> 00:18:48,160
sensitive to that

574
00:18:52,390 --> 00:18:50,640
you know i mean i've always spoken

575
00:18:53,990 --> 00:18:52,400
against it it's not like i'm endorsing

576
00:18:55,669 --> 00:18:54,000
what he did and i said well okay these

577
00:18:57,669 --> 00:18:55,679
are terrible crimes and of course three

578
00:18:59,190 --> 00:18:57,679
people got killed and 23 people were

579
00:19:01,830 --> 00:18:59,200
injured badly and

580
00:19:02,470 --> 00:19:01,840
you know i've never condoned what he did

581
00:19:03,830 --> 00:19:02,480
but on

582
00:19:06,470 --> 00:19:03,840
sort of on the one hand we have that

583
00:19:07,909 --> 00:19:06,480
situation on the other you know we have

584
00:19:09,909 --> 00:19:07,919
we have to deal with the arguments in

585
00:19:11,270 --> 00:19:09,919
the manifesto and there are very strong

586
00:19:14,470 --> 00:19:11,280
arguments against

587
00:19:15,909 --> 00:19:14,480
industrial technology uh

588
00:19:17,590 --> 00:19:15,919
they're well presented they're very

589
00:19:18,789 --> 00:19:17,600
logical they're very clear they're very

590
00:19:20,950 --> 00:19:18,799
rational

591
00:19:21,830 --> 00:19:20,960
so i guess the question is do we do we

592
00:19:23,430 --> 00:19:21,840
sort of just

593
00:19:24,549 --> 00:19:23,440
throw out the whole package do we say

594
00:19:25,990 --> 00:19:24,559
well we're not going to talk about

595
00:19:28,150 --> 00:19:26,000
anything that this guy did we're not

596
00:19:29,190 --> 00:19:28,160
going to talk about any of these issues

597
00:19:30,870 --> 00:19:29,200
we're not going to talk about the

598
00:19:31,190 --> 00:19:30,880
questions the challenges that we all

599
00:19:33,110 --> 00:19:31,200
face

600
00:19:34,710 --> 00:19:33,120
in a modern technological world we're

601
00:19:35,909 --> 00:19:34,720
just going to put that all aside because

602
00:19:38,789 --> 00:19:35,919
here's a guy

603
00:19:39,029 --> 00:19:38,799
who more than now what more than a third

604
00:19:41,590 --> 00:19:39,039
to

605
00:19:43,830 --> 00:19:41,600
20 or 30 years ago because he killed

606
00:19:46,230 --> 00:19:43,840
three people and injured several others

607
00:19:48,150 --> 00:19:46,240
so i guess the question is yeah do do we

608
00:19:50,070 --> 00:19:48,160
do ourselves any favor by doing that and

609
00:19:50,390 --> 00:19:50,080
the answer is clearly no i mean this is

610
00:19:58,230 --> 00:19:50,400
an

611
00:19:59,350 --> 00:19:58,240
not going to talk about this guy we're

612
00:20:00,710 --> 00:19:59,360
not invite by

613
00:20:02,710 --> 00:20:00,720
uh connection we're not going to talk

614
00:20:03,430 --> 00:20:02,720
about the arguments because he did some

615
00:20:06,870 --> 00:20:03,440
bad things

616
00:20:08,390 --> 00:20:06,880
uh two or three decades ago i mean

617
00:20:10,230 --> 00:20:08,400
it's it's just you know throwing out the

618
00:20:11,669 --> 00:20:10,240
baby with the bath water to the extreme

619
00:20:13,990 --> 00:20:11,679
you're harming yourself

620
00:20:15,750 --> 00:20:14,000
you're you're avoiding these the

621
00:20:16,230 --> 00:20:15,760
difficult but important discussions just

622
00:20:18,630 --> 00:20:16,240
because

623
00:20:20,149 --> 00:20:18,640
well okay the guy yeah committed some

624
00:20:20,789 --> 00:20:20,159
crimes i mean he got caught he's

625
00:20:23,350 --> 00:20:20,799
punished

626
00:20:24,789 --> 00:20:23,360
we all accept that i accept that um but

627
00:20:26,549 --> 00:20:24,799
we still need to talk about the issues

628
00:20:29,110 --> 00:20:26,559
because we face those issues

629
00:20:30,789 --> 00:20:29,120
whether you whether you like ted what he

630
00:20:32,310 --> 00:20:30,799
did or not whether he's dead or alive

631
00:20:33,909 --> 00:20:32,320
that doesn't matter we still face these

632
00:20:34,470 --> 00:20:33,919
issues and we still need to talk about

633
00:20:37,669 --> 00:20:34,480
them

634
00:20:39,510 --> 00:20:37,679
he has one take on these issues

635
00:20:41,270 --> 00:20:39,520
and it's important to talk about those

636
00:20:43,110 --> 00:20:41,280
along with other issues it's not his is

637
00:20:44,390 --> 00:20:43,120
not the only take

638
00:20:46,390 --> 00:20:44,400
in my course i talk about many

639
00:20:47,350 --> 00:20:46,400
perspectives but but certainly his is an

640
00:20:50,230 --> 00:20:47,360
important uh

641
00:20:51,750 --> 00:20:50,240
voice in this in this dialogue yeah but

642
00:20:53,350 --> 00:20:51,760
david there's a hell of a lot of room

643
00:20:56,549 --> 00:20:53,360
between throwing the baby out

644
00:20:58,789 --> 00:20:56,559
with the bath water and promoting

645
00:21:00,470 --> 00:20:58,799
ted kaczynski who again i keep saying

646
00:21:01,350 --> 00:21:00,480
serial killer and you keep saying una

647
00:21:03,029 --> 00:21:01,360
bomber whatever

648
00:21:04,950 --> 00:21:03,039
i mean he would have killed he would

649
00:21:08,070 --> 00:21:04,960
have gone on killing he planned on you

650
00:21:11,110 --> 00:21:08,080
know bombing a a commercial airliner

651
00:21:12,870 --> 00:21:11,120
so you know i mean i just think there's

652
00:21:14,149 --> 00:21:12,880
fine to talk about the ideas no one is

653
00:21:16,870 --> 00:21:14,159
suppressing

654
00:21:17,750 --> 00:21:16,880
there's a lot of people who have spoken

655
00:21:22,390 --> 00:21:17,760
very

656
00:21:25,750 --> 00:21:22,400
intelligently about

657
00:21:28,390 --> 00:21:25,760
including yourself about the potential

658
00:21:29,990 --> 00:21:28,400
ills of technology you get it i don't

659
00:21:31,190 --> 00:21:30,000
have to pound on it too much but

660
00:21:33,110 --> 00:21:31,200
i just think you're going to find a lot

661
00:21:35,590 --> 00:21:33,120
of people you already have i'm you've

662
00:21:37,350 --> 00:21:35,600
paid the price probably 10 times over

663
00:21:39,430 --> 00:21:37,360
but i think what it gets to david and

664
00:21:41,590 --> 00:21:39,440
this is the part that i think it gets to

665
00:21:43,750 --> 00:21:41,600
is we're going to talk about the jesus

666
00:21:46,630 --> 00:21:43,760
hoax and we're going to talk about how

667
00:21:47,110 --> 00:21:46,640
academia can be incredibly naive and

668
00:21:50,310 --> 00:21:47,120
tone

669
00:21:51,750 --> 00:21:50,320
deaf and just for the rest of us normies

670
00:21:52,230 --> 00:21:51,760
who've stepped out of that world they

671
00:21:53,909 --> 00:21:52,240
just go

672
00:21:56,630 --> 00:21:53,919
these people are stupid they're just

673
00:21:58,230 --> 00:21:56,640
stupid when it comes down to it well

674
00:22:00,310 --> 00:21:58,240
i i don't know if this raises to that

675
00:22:01,669 --> 00:22:00,320
level but it's like no you don't promote

676
00:22:03,270 --> 00:22:01,679
a serial killer by writing an

677
00:22:05,990 --> 00:22:03,280
introduction to his book you just don't

678
00:22:10,710 --> 00:22:09,350
yeah well okay i i mean i guess you know

679
00:22:12,070 --> 00:22:10,720
there's there's differing opinions on

680
00:22:13,750 --> 00:22:12,080
that uh um

681
00:22:15,190 --> 00:22:13,760
i mean if we're if we're gonna you know

682
00:22:15,750 --> 00:22:15,200
we're not gonna promote people who've

683
00:22:19,029 --> 00:22:15,760
killed

684
00:22:20,149 --> 00:22:19,039
innocent people okay there's a long list

685
00:22:22,310 --> 00:22:20,159
of people who've killed

686
00:22:24,230 --> 00:22:22,320
far more innocent people than ted

687
00:22:25,270 --> 00:22:24,240
kaczynski has i mean you can start with

688
00:22:27,430 --> 00:22:25,280
any president

689
00:22:29,430 --> 00:22:27,440
in recent years up until including one

690
00:22:29,909 --> 00:22:29,440
who probably issues military orders to

691
00:22:32,149 --> 00:22:29,919
kill

692
00:22:33,430 --> 00:22:32,159
more than three people every day and we

693
00:22:34,950 --> 00:22:33,440
don't even think twice about it we don't

694
00:22:36,390 --> 00:22:34,960
even know the statistics about how many

695
00:22:38,470 --> 00:22:36,400
innocent people got killed

696
00:22:39,510 --> 00:22:38,480
by our military strikes implicitly going

697
00:22:41,350 --> 00:22:39,520
to our president

698
00:22:43,110 --> 00:22:41,360
so and no one gives that a second

699
00:22:44,549 --> 00:22:43,120
thought and we just respect him and we

700
00:22:45,430 --> 00:22:44,559
salute him and so forth whether you like

701
00:22:47,750 --> 00:22:45,440
him or not

702
00:22:49,270 --> 00:22:47,760
so i mean we have to keep it inspect in

703
00:22:49,990 --> 00:22:49,280
perspective right i mean the loss of

704
00:22:52,230 --> 00:22:50,000
three people

705
00:22:53,350 --> 00:22:52,240
it's terrible it's tragedy but you know

706
00:22:55,750 --> 00:22:53,360
we're looking at a system that's

707
00:22:56,789 --> 00:22:55,760
potentially going to kill millions or

708
00:22:58,070 --> 00:22:56,799
billions

709
00:22:59,590 --> 00:22:58,080
and to say well we're not going to talk

710
00:23:01,190 --> 00:22:59,600
about this guy because he killed three

711
00:23:04,070 --> 00:23:01,200
people i mean that's just

712
00:23:07,110 --> 00:23:04,080
that's just uh you know losing track of

713
00:23:09,510 --> 00:23:07,120
the proper scale of the problem here

714
00:23:10,310 --> 00:23:09,520
boy you are going to have a hard hard

715
00:23:13,590 --> 00:23:10,320
time

716
00:23:17,029 --> 00:23:13,600
advancing that argument and i'm not uh

717
00:23:20,630 --> 00:23:17,039
in favor of drone strikes against

718
00:23:23,029 --> 00:23:20,640
yemenis wedding parties by barack obama

719
00:23:24,470 --> 00:23:23,039
or all the other ones who have done it i

720
00:23:27,750 --> 00:23:24,480
get that argument

721
00:23:29,909 --> 00:23:27,760
but i i just don't think you understand

722
00:23:30,630 --> 00:23:29,919
the line and i've already pounded on it

723
00:23:33,190 --> 00:23:30,640
enough so

724
00:23:34,070 --> 00:23:33,200
we can move on but that's going to be a

725
00:23:40,230 --> 00:23:34,080
hard one to

726
00:23:41,909 --> 00:23:40,240
ted kaczynski with anyone else who

727
00:23:44,470 --> 00:23:41,919
claims to have a cause

728
00:23:45,430 --> 00:23:44,480
and kills people you know i mean i

729
00:23:47,110 --> 00:23:45,440
understood yeah

730
00:23:49,029 --> 00:23:47,120
yeah i mean for what it's worth you know

731
00:23:51,669 --> 00:23:49,039
his was a unique case and he never

732
00:23:53,190 --> 00:23:51,679
actually advocated kill it i guess we we

733
00:23:55,029 --> 00:23:53,200
tend to forget this right he

734
00:23:56,549 --> 00:23:55,039
he viewed his situation as unique

735
00:23:57,110 --> 00:23:56,559
because he needed to get into the public

736
00:23:59,669 --> 00:23:57,120
eye

737
00:24:00,630 --> 00:23:59,679
he needed the notoriety to enforce the

738
00:24:03,510 --> 00:24:00,640
publication

739
00:24:04,390 --> 00:24:03,520
in his view of the manifesto in a high

740
00:24:07,430 --> 00:24:04,400
visibility

741
00:24:09,110 --> 00:24:07,440
venue and so in in a sense and this is

742
00:24:10,070 --> 00:24:09,120
what he said anyway that this is what

743
00:24:13,029 --> 00:24:10,080
drove him to this

744
00:24:14,789 --> 00:24:13,039
sort of you know bombing campaign he

745
00:24:16,870 --> 00:24:14,799
never recommended it for other people

746
00:24:18,070 --> 00:24:16,880
he never suggested it in the manifesto

747
00:24:19,510 --> 00:24:18,080
if you read the manifesto

748
00:24:20,950 --> 00:24:19,520
there's no suggestion he could have said

749
00:24:21,750 --> 00:24:20,960
anything he wanted because they agreed

750
00:24:22,870 --> 00:24:21,760
to publish it

751
00:24:25,350 --> 00:24:22,880
he could have said get out there and

752
00:24:27,110 --> 00:24:25,360
kill kill he said nothing there's no

753
00:24:28,630 --> 00:24:27,120
not a single word in the manifesto about

754
00:24:29,110 --> 00:24:28,640
killing other people sending bombs

755
00:24:31,029 --> 00:24:29,120
nothing

756
00:24:33,669 --> 00:24:31,039
he's never suggested that to me or to

757
00:24:36,390 --> 00:24:33,679
anyone else so i think he viewed it as

758
00:24:37,750 --> 00:24:36,400
a sort of an exclusive unique situation

759
00:24:39,590 --> 00:24:37,760
that he was in that he felt was

760
00:24:41,430 --> 00:24:39,600
necessary at the time

761
00:24:43,510 --> 00:24:41,440
okay i mean we can judge it you know

762
00:24:44,950 --> 00:24:43,520
negatively or positively he was caught

763
00:24:46,789 --> 00:24:44,960
he's paying the price and

764
00:24:48,310 --> 00:24:46,799
then then then like i said okay now

765
00:24:49,110 --> 00:24:48,320
that's past history that's decades in

766
00:24:51,350 --> 00:24:49,120
the past

767
00:24:53,029 --> 00:24:51,360
and now we're here and we have to either

768
00:24:54,789 --> 00:24:53,039
talk about the issues or we can try to

769
00:24:56,230 --> 00:24:54,799
sweep it aside

770
00:24:57,990 --> 00:24:56,240
so one of the things i brought up to you

771
00:25:01,269 --> 00:24:58,000
in email was

772
00:25:04,950 --> 00:25:01,279
the link between ted kaczynski and uh mk

773
00:25:08,390 --> 00:25:04,960
ultra which on one hand you acknowledge

774
00:25:09,669 --> 00:25:08,400
and uh what's the guy's name at harvard

775
00:25:11,430 --> 00:25:09,679
and again uh you know there's an

776
00:25:13,269 --> 00:25:11,440
interesting link here that people will

777
00:25:14,710 --> 00:25:13,279
find is the gifted child thing

778
00:25:17,110 --> 00:25:14,720
because there's a lot of these gifted

779
00:25:17,510 --> 00:25:17,120
children jeffrey epstein another gifted

780
00:25:21,430 --> 00:25:17,520
child

781
00:25:23,909 --> 00:25:21,440
steinem another

782
00:25:25,669 --> 00:25:23,919
gifted child gets pulled into

783
00:25:29,430 --> 00:25:25,679
intelligence programs

784
00:25:31,590 --> 00:25:29,440
uh and and that kind of thing but

785
00:25:32,789 --> 00:25:31,600
certainly ted kaczynski fits the gifted

786
00:25:35,029 --> 00:25:32,799
child profile

787
00:25:36,789 --> 00:25:35,039
he goes to harvard he gets pulled into

788
00:25:40,390 --> 00:25:36,799
an mk ultra program

789
00:25:40,710 --> 00:25:40,400
run by henry miller who is good friends

790
00:25:42,789 --> 00:25:40,720
with

791
00:25:45,350 --> 00:25:42,799
sidney gottlieb who is our joseph

792
00:25:49,269 --> 00:25:45,360
mengele of the mk ultra program

793
00:25:51,430 --> 00:25:49,279
and you shot backed me and you thought

794
00:25:52,870 --> 00:25:51,440
that on one hand you acknowledge there's

795
00:25:54,310 --> 00:25:52,880
some connection there but it's really

796
00:25:56,789 --> 00:25:54,320
kind of a distraction

797
00:25:57,590 --> 00:25:56,799
in order to kind of paint a different

798
00:25:59,909 --> 00:25:57,600
picture

799
00:26:02,230 --> 00:25:59,919
on and ted kaczynski what do you have to

800
00:26:04,310 --> 00:26:02,240
add to that what can you tell us

801
00:26:06,149 --> 00:26:04,320
yeah so from from what i from what i

802
00:26:06,870 --> 00:26:06,159
know about the situation it's kind of a

803
00:26:10,470 --> 00:26:06,880
bogus

804
00:26:13,190 --> 00:26:10,480
cover story right so um

805
00:26:14,310 --> 00:26:13,200
you know the the the mainstream media

806
00:26:16,870 --> 00:26:14,320
and the government and

807
00:26:17,750 --> 00:26:16,880
the uh local administrations and so

808
00:26:19,510 --> 00:26:17,760
forth i mean they

809
00:26:21,750 --> 00:26:19,520
they've long wanted to discredit

810
00:26:23,750 --> 00:26:21,760
kaczynski what he did what he said his

811
00:26:25,029 --> 00:26:23,760
arguments in the manifesto

812
00:26:26,789 --> 00:26:25,039
they they really want to dismiss it

813
00:26:28,870 --> 00:26:26,799
because it prevents a fun presents a

814
00:26:31,350 --> 00:26:28,880
fundamental threat to

815
00:26:32,950 --> 00:26:31,360
to the power of a technological society

816
00:26:34,630 --> 00:26:32,960
if you're trying to undermine technology

817
00:26:36,630 --> 00:26:34,640
this is you know defeats the basis of

818
00:26:39,190 --> 00:26:36,640
your modern society

819
00:26:40,870 --> 00:26:39,200
and and so they were anxious to uh

820
00:26:42,549 --> 00:26:40,880
undermine his arguments

821
00:26:44,149 --> 00:26:42,559
so the problem is when you look at the

822
00:26:45,750 --> 00:26:44,159
manifesto

823
00:26:47,750 --> 00:26:45,760
the arguments are very solid there are

824
00:26:49,990 --> 00:26:47,760
sound arguments they're logical

825
00:26:52,710 --> 00:26:50,000
there's there's justification for them

826
00:26:55,750 --> 00:26:52,720
they have a very hard time

827
00:26:57,350 --> 00:26:55,760
tackling the arguments themselves so

828
00:26:59,190 --> 00:26:57,360
like everybody does when you can't do

829
00:27:01,029 --> 00:26:59,200
that you take your next best

830
00:27:03,269 --> 00:27:01,039
approach which is you attack the source

831
00:27:04,950 --> 00:27:03,279
you do a kind of an ad hominem attack

832
00:27:06,310 --> 00:27:04,960
against the person who's presented those

833
00:27:08,390 --> 00:27:06,320
arguments and you try to undermine his

834
00:27:09,510 --> 00:27:08,400
credibility

835
00:27:11,029 --> 00:27:09,520
so i think this is what they've done

836
00:27:12,950 --> 00:27:11,039
they've played up this story including

837
00:27:14,789 --> 00:27:12,960
some of the early so-called biographers

838
00:27:17,350 --> 00:27:14,799
of kozinski about this

839
00:27:19,029 --> 00:27:17,360
relatively very minor incident when he

840
00:27:20,710 --> 00:27:19,039
was an undergrad at harvard he was

841
00:27:22,549 --> 00:27:20,720
uh seems to have been involved in kind

842
00:27:24,149 --> 00:27:22,559
of an entire interview it was really an

843
00:27:27,269 --> 00:27:24,159
interview process where he

844
00:27:29,350 --> 00:27:27,279
sat down for some number of

845
00:27:30,710 --> 00:27:29,360
a few hours i don't think it was days or

846
00:27:32,470 --> 00:27:30,720
weeks or months i think it was a

847
00:27:34,149 --> 00:27:32,480
relatively short period of time i've

848
00:27:35,350 --> 00:27:34,159
seen some of the transcripts from this

849
00:27:39,510 --> 00:27:35,360
discussion

850
00:27:41,750 --> 00:27:39,520
he was interviewed by by uh these guys

851
00:27:43,029 --> 00:27:41,760
and it was it was kind of a an

852
00:27:46,230 --> 00:27:43,039
experimentation on

853
00:27:48,230 --> 00:27:46,240
on on duress right or psychological

854
00:27:50,149 --> 00:27:48,240
stress where where they would bring in

855
00:27:51,750 --> 00:27:50,159
these bright students they would press

856
00:27:52,950 --> 00:27:51,760
them for their arguments and they would

857
00:27:54,389 --> 00:27:52,960
they would push back and they say well

858
00:27:55,350 --> 00:27:54,399
that's ridiculous and that makes no

859
00:27:56,230 --> 00:27:55,360
sense if you don't know what you're

860
00:27:57,830 --> 00:27:56,240
talking about

861
00:27:59,909 --> 00:27:57,840
just to push back on these guys to put

862
00:28:00,710 --> 00:27:59,919
them under these conditions of sort of a

863
00:28:03,669 --> 00:28:00,720
kind of a stress

864
00:28:05,190 --> 00:28:03,679
stressful situation and i i guess right

865
00:28:06,389 --> 00:28:05,200
to sort of see how they reacted what

866
00:28:09,430 --> 00:28:06,399
their response was

867
00:28:11,510 --> 00:28:09,440
you know um raising the level of stress

868
00:28:13,190 --> 00:28:11,520
a little bit and so forth and just

869
00:28:14,070 --> 00:28:13,200
and just seeing how they reacted

870
00:28:15,510 --> 00:28:14,080
apparently it was a kind of a

871
00:28:17,590 --> 00:28:15,520
psychological study

872
00:28:19,750 --> 00:28:17,600
um but when you read the transcripts of

873
00:28:21,029 --> 00:28:19,760
what was going on it was very mild i

874
00:28:22,549 --> 00:28:21,039
mean it was just little

875
00:28:24,549 --> 00:28:22,559
little sort of niggling points and

876
00:28:26,630 --> 00:28:24,559
little personal insults and

877
00:28:27,830 --> 00:28:26,640
just little you know like little sniping

878
00:28:30,149 --> 00:28:27,840
criticisms which

879
00:28:31,909 --> 00:28:30,159
you know you would almost you'd almost

880
00:28:33,830 --> 00:28:31,919
pass it off as well okay this guy's a

881
00:28:35,590 --> 00:28:33,840
jerk or he's just being stupid or he

882
00:28:36,870 --> 00:28:35,600
doesn't like me or whatever

883
00:28:38,789 --> 00:28:36,880
you know if you were just a normal

884
00:28:40,950 --> 00:28:38,799
student um

885
00:28:42,789 --> 00:28:40,960
so i mean this was really the extent of

886
00:28:45,430 --> 00:28:42,799
it it was really a very minor

887
00:28:47,350 --> 00:28:45,440
virtually inconsequential period of time

888
00:28:50,149 --> 00:28:47,360
that he talked to these uh to these

889
00:28:51,750 --> 00:28:50,159
these researchers but of course the

890
00:28:55,269 --> 00:28:51,760
mainstream

891
00:28:56,389 --> 00:28:55,279
portray this as some kind of mind

892
00:28:58,470 --> 00:28:56,399
warping you know

893
00:28:59,510 --> 00:28:58,480
brain altering process whereby they

894
00:29:01,110 --> 00:28:59,520
distorted the whole

895
00:29:02,470 --> 00:29:01,120
his whole outlook on on the world and

896
00:29:03,590 --> 00:29:02,480
they made him hate humanity and they

897
00:29:06,630 --> 00:29:03,600
turned him into this

898
00:29:08,389 --> 00:29:06,640
you know serial killer as a way of

899
00:29:10,630 --> 00:29:08,399
i think as a way of undermining his

900
00:29:12,149 --> 00:29:10,640
basic position which is he has a logical

901
00:29:15,750 --> 00:29:12,159
and rational argument for what

902
00:29:17,990 --> 00:29:15,760
for what he says so so again it's a

903
00:29:19,510 --> 00:29:18,000
it's a sort of an ad hominem attack

904
00:29:22,070 --> 00:29:19,520
against kaczynski

905
00:29:23,350 --> 00:29:22,080
uh really with just sort of a kernel of

906
00:29:25,750 --> 00:29:23,360
truth but there's really

907
00:29:27,350 --> 00:29:25,760
virtually nothing to it and it in any

908
00:29:28,470 --> 00:29:27,360
case it has no bearing on the actual

909
00:29:30,630 --> 00:29:28,480
arguments that he presents

910
00:29:32,549 --> 00:29:30,640
so i think the whole thing is kind of a

911
00:29:34,230 --> 00:29:32,559
smoke screen just to sort of

912
00:29:35,750 --> 00:29:34,240
cast doubt on the whole guy and make him

913
00:29:38,070 --> 00:29:35,760
seem like he's uh

914
00:29:39,830 --> 00:29:38,080
yeah he's you know been a mind-altered

915
00:29:41,110 --> 00:29:39,840
you know dupe of the system or something

916
00:29:42,230 --> 00:29:41,120
which is

917
00:29:44,789 --> 00:29:42,240
everything i've seen is completely

918
00:29:47,029 --> 00:29:44,799
ridiculous i get where you're coming

919
00:29:49,029 --> 00:29:47,039
from but it doesn't really add up to me

920
00:29:51,750 --> 00:29:49,039
that this would be kind of a

921
00:29:53,029 --> 00:29:51,760
manufactured or promoted story because

922
00:29:56,070 --> 00:29:53,039
it certainly doesn't

923
00:29:58,230 --> 00:29:56,080
look good for the powers that be who are

924
00:29:59,750 --> 00:29:58,240
in power and as far as discrediting

925
00:30:02,789 --> 00:29:59,760
kaczynski nobody gives

926
00:30:05,669 --> 00:30:02,799
any credence to kaczynski and the

927
00:30:07,269 --> 00:30:05,679
technology claims i mean you you do and

928
00:30:08,549 --> 00:30:07,279
you might be able to make that argument

929
00:30:11,430 --> 00:30:08,559
with someone in a

930
00:30:13,269 --> 00:30:11,440
closed room over a course of hours i

931
00:30:14,389 --> 00:30:13,279
know the arguments i just don't think

932
00:30:16,710 --> 00:30:14,399
that has any

933
00:30:18,149 --> 00:30:16,720
sway in the public it didn't when he

934
00:30:20,470 --> 00:30:18,159
published the manifesto

935
00:30:21,590 --> 00:30:20,480
it doesn't today it doesn't work it

936
00:30:24,549 --> 00:30:21,600
doesn't resonate

937
00:30:24,950 --> 00:30:24,559
the the what seems more of the reality

938
00:30:27,269 --> 00:30:24,960
is

939
00:30:29,510 --> 00:30:27,279
the mk ultra reality and i don't know if

940
00:30:29,909 --> 00:30:29,520
you know the extent of the mklg program

941
00:30:32,230 --> 00:30:29,919
but

942
00:30:33,590 --> 00:30:32,240
you know i've spoken with interviewed

943
00:30:35,269 --> 00:30:33,600
many people who are a part of that

944
00:30:36,070 --> 00:30:35,279
program including the people in stargate

945
00:30:38,230 --> 00:30:36,080
who were doing the remote

946
00:30:39,750 --> 00:30:38,240
viewing which was under sydney gottlieb

947
00:30:41,269 --> 00:30:39,760
and including a number of other programs

948
00:30:41,750 --> 00:30:41,279
you know i interviewed whitley strieber

949
00:30:44,950 --> 00:30:41,760
the

950
00:30:47,190 --> 00:30:44,960
communion

951
00:30:49,669 --> 00:30:47,200
again gifted child program nine years

952
00:30:51,430 --> 00:30:49,679
old san antonio military base

953
00:30:53,190 --> 00:30:51,440
lock them in a faraday cage bring

954
00:30:54,149 --> 00:30:53,200
animals over cut them open in front of

955
00:30:57,750 --> 00:30:54,159
their head

956
00:30:59,750 --> 00:30:57,760
there were all sorts

957
00:31:01,190 --> 00:30:59,760
of programs that they were doing and it

958
00:31:02,789 --> 00:31:01,200
all grew out of the you know and they

959
00:31:03,990 --> 00:31:02,799
were doing it before that the phoenix

960
00:31:06,630 --> 00:31:04,000
program in vietnam

961
00:31:07,750 --> 00:31:06,640
and just the last thing i would think

962
00:31:10,310 --> 00:31:07,760
they won't want to do

963
00:31:13,430 --> 00:31:10,320
is kind of wrap themselves around the

964
00:31:16,630 --> 00:31:13,440
mkultra program in order to

965
00:31:18,950 --> 00:31:16,640
i don't know uh prop up

966
00:31:19,669 --> 00:31:18,960
ted ted kaczynski as a mind control

967
00:31:22,230 --> 00:31:19,679
victim and

968
00:31:23,350 --> 00:31:22,240
minimize the fact of his powerful

969
00:31:25,750 --> 00:31:23,360
argument about

970
00:31:26,470 --> 00:31:25,760
technology the other thing is i mean

971
00:31:28,549 --> 00:31:26,480
when you say

972
00:31:29,669 --> 00:31:28,559
uh you know you what you know about the

973
00:31:32,389 --> 00:31:29,679
program i mean

974
00:31:33,029 --> 00:31:32,399
that's the thing right we don't know

975
00:31:35,430 --> 00:31:33,039
hardly

976
00:31:37,190 --> 00:31:35,440
anything about what they really did they

977
00:31:38,710 --> 00:31:37,200
only revealed what they did because they

978
00:31:40,470 --> 00:31:38,720
got sued in canada

979
00:31:42,549 --> 00:31:40,480
and they didn't have the ability to shut

980
00:31:44,549 --> 00:31:42,559
down the foia requests in canada

981
00:31:46,470 --> 00:31:44,559
and it came out and then as soon as it

982
00:31:48,549 --> 00:31:46,480
came to the u.s and they ran the sonic

983
00:31:50,149 --> 00:31:48,559
the senate committee on it they shut the

984
00:31:50,950 --> 00:31:50,159
whole thing down they didn't release any

985
00:31:52,310 --> 00:31:50,960
information

986
00:31:54,149 --> 00:31:52,320
and they said it's a matter of national

987
00:31:56,470 --> 00:31:54,159
security so i'm just

988
00:31:57,350 --> 00:31:56,480
very suspicious of anything we think we

989
00:32:00,070 --> 00:31:57,360
know

990
00:32:00,630 --> 00:32:00,080
about the program and then finally

991
00:32:03,110 --> 00:32:00,640
doesn't

992
00:32:05,269 --> 00:32:03,120
ted's brother say i saw it in a

993
00:32:05,990 --> 00:32:05,279
documentation on netflix so it must be

994
00:32:09,350 --> 00:32:06,000
true

995
00:32:12,070 --> 00:32:09,360
but i'm being facetious but i did hear

996
00:32:14,710 --> 00:32:12,080
ted kaczynski's brother say that when he

997
00:32:17,990 --> 00:32:14,720
came home from harvard

998
00:32:19,669 --> 00:32:18,000
after that initial encounter he was a

999
00:32:21,669 --> 00:32:19,679
changed person his whole

1000
00:32:23,509 --> 00:32:21,679
outlook on the world changed he was

1001
00:32:24,789 --> 00:32:23,519
bitter and he he just seemed to be a

1002
00:32:26,070 --> 00:32:24,799
very different person

1003
00:32:28,230 --> 00:32:26,080
what do you think about any of that

1004
00:32:30,789 --> 00:32:28,240
stuff well i mean that's entirely

1005
00:32:32,630 --> 00:32:30,799
possible right i mean a lot of people

1006
00:32:34,389 --> 00:32:32,640
go to college as an undergrad as sort of

1007
00:32:36,149 --> 00:32:34,399
a naive high schooler and they come out

1008
00:32:37,750 --> 00:32:36,159
of college and their outlooks are really

1009
00:32:39,110 --> 00:32:37,760
substantially changed because they're

1010
00:32:40,870 --> 00:32:39,120
presented with

1011
00:32:42,149 --> 00:32:40,880
dramatic and striking new ideas that

1012
00:32:43,269 --> 00:32:42,159
they probably had never considered

1013
00:32:45,590 --> 00:32:43,279
before so

1014
00:32:46,470 --> 00:32:45,600
i mean that's not that unusual that that

1015
00:32:48,070 --> 00:32:46,480
you know a

1016
00:32:49,509 --> 00:32:48,080
family sends a kid off to school they

1017
00:32:50,389 --> 00:32:49,519
come back and say wow this person is

1018
00:32:51,830 --> 00:32:50,399
very different from

1019
00:32:54,149 --> 00:32:51,840
from the high school that we sent to

1020
00:32:56,149 --> 00:32:54,159
them particularly in the case of harvard

1021
00:32:57,990 --> 00:32:56,159
because you're sending a 16 year old ted

1022
00:32:59,029 --> 00:32:58,000
kaczynski he was literally still a high

1023
00:33:00,230 --> 00:32:59,039
school student

1024
00:33:02,470 --> 00:33:00,240
and of course you're going to expect

1025
00:33:04,789 --> 00:33:02,480
dramatic changes uh

1026
00:33:06,149 --> 00:33:04,799
you know under that kind of experience

1027
00:33:07,750 --> 00:33:06,159
so he was already in kind of an

1028
00:33:09,350 --> 00:33:07,760
adverse situation he was already

1029
00:33:12,230 --> 00:33:09,360
significantly younger than his

1030
00:33:13,669 --> 00:33:12,240
his peers of course um and probably was

1031
00:33:15,110 --> 00:33:13,679
expected to perform at higher

1032
00:33:17,269 --> 00:33:15,120
higher levels because he was sort of

1033
00:33:20,470 --> 00:33:17,279
this this genius level person

1034
00:33:23,350 --> 00:33:20,480
um so i it's not surprising that he sees

1035
00:33:24,950 --> 00:33:23,360
these changes i mean sometimes you know

1036
00:33:26,470 --> 00:33:24,960
students come back from college and they

1037
00:33:27,990 --> 00:33:26,480
you know they have a sort of more

1038
00:33:30,070 --> 00:33:28,000
enlightened outlook sometimes they're

1039
00:33:31,430 --> 00:33:30,080
more of a

1040
00:33:33,750 --> 00:33:31,440
i don't know could call it a bitter

1041
00:33:35,190 --> 00:33:33,760
outlook or kind of a kind of a cynical

1042
00:33:36,950 --> 00:33:35,200
outlook on the world after they've seen

1043
00:33:38,549 --> 00:33:36,960
some things that they hadn't had

1044
00:33:40,389 --> 00:33:38,559
encountered before so i i don't think

1045
00:33:41,190 --> 00:33:40,399
there's really anything significant

1046
00:33:43,029 --> 00:33:41,200
about that

1047
00:33:45,350 --> 00:33:43,039
um and again i don't know all the

1048
00:33:46,149 --> 00:33:45,360
details of like i say mk ultra but but

1049
00:33:47,990 --> 00:33:46,159
again this was

1050
00:33:49,590 --> 00:33:48,000
sort of not technically part of the

1051
00:33:51,029 --> 00:33:49,600
program this was only incidentally

1052
00:33:52,870 --> 00:33:51,039
connected to somebody who was in the

1053
00:33:55,430 --> 00:33:52,880
program and anything that

1054
00:33:57,190 --> 00:33:55,440
involved kozinski actually no evidence

1055
00:33:59,110 --> 00:33:57,200
that he had any kind of significant

1056
00:34:01,830 --> 00:33:59,120
stress as part of this program

1057
00:34:02,630 --> 00:34:01,840
so you know why should that get any air

1058
00:34:05,110 --> 00:34:02,640
time i mean it's

1059
00:34:06,230 --> 00:34:05,120
sort of an interesting curiosity about

1060
00:34:08,710 --> 00:34:06,240
his background

1061
00:34:09,430 --> 00:34:08,720
but but uh you know once again that's uh

1062
00:34:11,109 --> 00:34:09,440
that's no

1063
00:34:13,109 --> 00:34:11,119
different effect than you know he was he

1064
00:34:14,470 --> 00:34:13,119
hated his mother when he was three years

1065
00:34:15,669 --> 00:34:14,480
old or whatever i don't know

1066
00:34:17,109 --> 00:34:15,679
what all his background is i mean

1067
00:34:18,069 --> 00:34:17,119
there's interesting facts of all of our

1068
00:34:20,149 --> 00:34:18,079
histories

1069
00:34:22,310 --> 00:34:20,159
uh but that again that again seems to

1070
00:34:23,829 --> 00:34:22,320
have no bearing on

1071
00:34:25,669 --> 00:34:23,839
the case against technology and against

1072
00:34:29,430 --> 00:34:25,679
his arguments uh

1073
00:34:31,510 --> 00:34:29,440
and and what he did there so okay

1074
00:34:33,190 --> 00:34:31,520
we we can move on off of that let's talk

1075
00:34:33,990 --> 00:34:33,200
about pan psychism a little bit i don't

1076
00:34:36,149 --> 00:34:34,000
want to get too far

1077
00:34:38,069 --> 00:34:36,159
into that because you know the the

1078
00:34:39,909 --> 00:34:38,079
interest level and patience people have

1079
00:34:42,550 --> 00:34:39,919
for that is is pretty limited

1080
00:34:43,190 --> 00:34:42,560
but we exchanged some emails on that i

1081
00:34:46,869 --> 00:34:43,200
sent you

1082
00:34:48,230 --> 00:34:46,879
my kind of go-to guy dr bernardo castro

1083
00:34:50,550 --> 00:34:48,240
who's quite prominent in the

1084
00:34:52,470 --> 00:34:50,560
consciousness circles and in addition to

1085
00:34:54,629 --> 00:34:52,480
a phd in philosophy he has a

1086
00:34:55,829 --> 00:34:54,639
phd in computer science which i think

1087
00:34:57,910 --> 00:34:55,839
makes him really interesting

1088
00:35:00,150 --> 00:34:57,920
and he worked at cern right so he

1089
00:35:03,750 --> 00:35:00,160
understands the fundamental physics

1090
00:35:06,790 --> 00:35:03,760
kind of thing and where we're at in

1091
00:35:08,550 --> 00:35:06,800
understanding a world out there versus a

1092
00:35:11,270 --> 00:35:08,560
world in here

1093
00:35:11,670 --> 00:35:11,280
so you kind of pushed back and said hey

1094
00:35:15,510 --> 00:35:11,680
no

1095
00:35:17,349 --> 00:35:15,520
what he's talking about

1096
00:35:18,550 --> 00:35:17,359
well maybe we could start there i mean

1097
00:35:21,750 --> 00:35:18,560
what

1098
00:35:23,910 --> 00:35:21,760
go ahead yeah well right so i i mean i

1099
00:35:25,750 --> 00:35:23,920
i don't know all the details of of his

1100
00:35:27,270 --> 00:35:25,760
work for example in his case

1101
00:35:28,950 --> 00:35:27,280
i've read some bits and pieces i've read

1102
00:35:30,790 --> 00:35:28,960
some interviews and a couple little

1103
00:35:34,069 --> 00:35:30,800
snippets from from his books

1104
00:35:36,550 --> 00:35:34,079
um but yeah i mean he portrays himself

1105
00:35:39,270 --> 00:35:36,560
as a kind of an idealist philosopher

1106
00:35:41,270 --> 00:35:39,280
uh which stands in contrast to typical

1107
00:35:43,510 --> 00:35:41,280
physicalism or materialism

1108
00:35:45,349 --> 00:35:43,520
right so uh you know depends on how much

1109
00:35:47,190 --> 00:35:45,359
detail you want to go into in these uh

1110
00:35:49,270 --> 00:35:47,200
sort of metaphysical theories of mind

1111
00:35:51,430 --> 00:35:49,280
and reality but aren't you a long way

1112
00:35:53,670 --> 00:35:51,440
from materialism

1113
00:35:54,950 --> 00:35:53,680
uh yeah i mean i i agree with him i i as

1114
00:35:55,990 --> 00:35:54,960
far as i know he's an opponent to

1115
00:35:58,870 --> 00:35:56,000
materialism and i

1116
00:35:59,829 --> 00:35:58,880
am too right so the the the question is

1117
00:36:02,470 --> 00:35:59,839
of course

1118
00:36:03,750 --> 00:36:02,480
so yeah just quick background right so a

1119
00:36:05,990 --> 00:36:03,760
traditional materialist

1120
00:36:07,190 --> 00:36:06,000
in a philosophical sense says all that

1121
00:36:09,349 --> 00:36:07,200
exists

1122
00:36:11,190 --> 00:36:09,359
in the world is matter and energy

1123
00:36:13,990 --> 00:36:11,200
basically physical stuff

1124
00:36:14,230 --> 00:36:14,000
right so to the typical particles and

1125
00:36:16,390 --> 00:36:14,240
and

1126
00:36:18,790 --> 00:36:16,400
uh you know bits of electro electric uh

1127
00:36:19,430 --> 00:36:18,800
like electromagnetic waves and photons

1128
00:36:22,710 --> 00:36:19,440
and

1129
00:36:24,390 --> 00:36:22,720
there's this this

1130
00:36:25,990 --> 00:36:24,400
standard form with all that all that's

1131
00:36:30,390 --> 00:36:26,000
real in the world

1132
00:36:33,030 --> 00:36:30,400
is matter material stuff okay

1133
00:36:33,910 --> 00:36:33,040
the there's a further further premise

1134
00:36:37,190 --> 00:36:33,920
that this matter

1135
00:36:38,950 --> 00:36:37,200
is sort of in psychically inert or

1136
00:36:41,829 --> 00:36:38,960
psychologically inner it's not

1137
00:36:42,470 --> 00:36:41,839
thinking matter it's just it's just mere

1138
00:36:45,109 --> 00:36:42,480
matter it's

1139
00:36:46,230 --> 00:36:45,119
dead matter it just interacts with the

1140
00:36:48,550 --> 00:36:46,240
through forces and

1141
00:36:49,670 --> 00:36:48,560
and pressures and through energetic

1142
00:36:51,109 --> 00:36:49,680
interactions

1143
00:36:53,510 --> 00:36:51,119
and it's purely driven by these

1144
00:36:55,430 --> 00:36:53,520
mechanical laws so the proper

1145
00:36:57,430 --> 00:36:55,440
the proper terminology i think that we

1146
00:36:59,750 --> 00:36:57,440
should use is this idea of mechanistic

1147
00:37:01,430 --> 00:36:59,760
materialism so the whole universe

1148
00:37:03,829 --> 00:37:01,440
consists just of matter

1149
00:37:04,870 --> 00:37:03,839
material stuff driven by mechanical

1150
00:37:07,349 --> 00:37:04,880
forces

1151
00:37:09,670 --> 00:37:07,359
uh laws of physics you know math

1152
00:37:10,950 --> 00:37:09,680
described by mathematical equations

1153
00:37:12,710 --> 00:37:10,960
and this is sort of the standard

1154
00:37:13,990 --> 00:37:12,720
traditional view of what materialism

1155
00:37:16,630 --> 00:37:14,000
means

1156
00:37:17,990 --> 00:37:16,640
the the problem is to explain sort of

1157
00:37:19,670 --> 00:37:18,000
you know what goes on in here

1158
00:37:21,510 --> 00:37:19,680
right to explain consciousness and

1159
00:37:22,310 --> 00:37:21,520
conscious awareness and the mind in

1160
00:37:23,910 --> 00:37:22,320
general

1161
00:37:26,230 --> 00:37:23,920
because if you look in the world of

1162
00:37:27,990 --> 00:37:26,240
matter there seems to not be any

1163
00:37:28,950 --> 00:37:28,000
conscious awareness things just look

1164
00:37:31,589 --> 00:37:28,960
like they're just

1165
00:37:32,710 --> 00:37:31,599
stuff like rocks you know and and you

1166
00:37:35,349 --> 00:37:32,720
know and dirt

1167
00:37:36,310 --> 00:37:35,359
and air and stars and planets and

1168
00:37:37,750 --> 00:37:36,320
whatever right just

1169
00:37:39,430 --> 00:37:37,760
it's just stuff just following

1170
00:37:41,670 --> 00:37:39,440
mechanical laws

1171
00:37:43,910 --> 00:37:41,680
so the question for a materialist is how

1172
00:37:46,230 --> 00:37:43,920
to explain the existence

1173
00:37:47,910 --> 00:37:46,240
of firstly the human mind which is the

1174
00:37:50,710 --> 00:37:47,920
only mind we know for sure

1175
00:37:51,510 --> 00:37:50,720
and then other minds presumably animal

1176
00:37:53,990 --> 00:37:51,520
minds

1177
00:37:54,550 --> 00:37:54,000
which most people accept possibly plant

1178
00:37:58,069 --> 00:37:54,560
minds

1179
00:37:59,670 --> 00:37:58,079
of living things

1180
00:38:01,349 --> 00:37:59,680
and this is actually a very difficult

1181
00:38:03,109 --> 00:38:01,359
problem for any materialist

1182
00:38:04,630 --> 00:38:03,119
to explain how this actually happens

1183
00:38:06,470 --> 00:38:04,640
because it seems to be impossible

1184
00:38:08,470 --> 00:38:06,480
it seems like a miracle it's almost like

1185
00:38:10,150 --> 00:38:08,480
humans are some you know miraculous

1186
00:38:11,670 --> 00:38:10,160
creature then you know god came down one

1187
00:38:13,270 --> 00:38:11,680
day and zap and we all had this

1188
00:38:15,430 --> 00:38:13,280
you know mind that got created out of

1189
00:38:16,390 --> 00:38:15,440
nothing it really seems like a miracle

1190
00:38:20,950 --> 00:38:16,400
so

1191
00:38:22,870 --> 00:38:20,960
in this materialist picture which says

1192
00:38:24,510 --> 00:38:22,880
the whole universe for billions of years

1193
00:38:27,109 --> 00:38:24,520
was just inert

1194
00:38:28,790 --> 00:38:27,119
psychologically dead matter and energy

1195
00:38:30,950 --> 00:38:28,800
interacting interacting and then you

1196
00:38:31,990 --> 00:38:30,960
form planets in early life and complex

1197
00:38:33,430 --> 00:38:32,000
life and then there's

1198
00:38:35,829 --> 00:38:33,440
you know proto-humans and then there's

1199
00:38:37,750 --> 00:38:35,839
humans and then at some point being

1200
00:38:39,589 --> 00:38:37,760
you know the mind the consciousness

1201
00:38:41,349 --> 00:38:39,599
awareness click kicks in

1202
00:38:43,190 --> 00:38:41,359
and suddenly the mind appears out of

1203
00:38:45,349 --> 00:38:43,200
nowhere it's

1204
00:38:46,470 --> 00:38:45,359
unexplainable it's like a it's like a

1205
00:38:47,430 --> 00:38:46,480
miracle right it's called brood

1206
00:38:49,430 --> 00:38:47,440
emergence

1207
00:38:51,510 --> 00:38:49,440
it makes no sense and physicalists or

1208
00:38:52,550 --> 00:38:51,520
materialists have no explanation for how

1209
00:38:54,550 --> 00:38:52,560
that works

1210
00:38:55,829 --> 00:38:54,560
and i guess the conclusion is that they

1211
00:38:58,069 --> 00:38:55,839
must be wrong that

1212
00:39:00,150 --> 00:38:58,079
it cannot be the case that we have

1213
00:39:02,390 --> 00:39:00,160
standard mechanistic materialism because

1214
00:39:05,030 --> 00:39:02,400
there's just no way to get from that

1215
00:39:06,069 --> 00:39:05,040
to the human mind i don't understand the

1216
00:39:07,510 --> 00:39:06,079
divide though

1217
00:39:09,109 --> 00:39:07,520
because when i hit you with the pan

1218
00:39:10,710 --> 00:39:09,119
psychism the the thing about pant

1219
00:39:11,109 --> 00:39:10,720
psychism it always seems to me like kind

1220
00:39:13,349 --> 00:39:11,119
of

1221
00:39:14,950 --> 00:39:13,359
backdoor materialism it's a way to kind

1222
00:39:17,589 --> 00:39:14,960
of leave the world

1223
00:39:18,550 --> 00:39:17,599
out there but then we can still say yeah

1224
00:39:20,390 --> 00:39:18,560
because it has all these little

1225
00:39:21,030 --> 00:39:20,400
consciousness bits hanging along with it

1226
00:39:23,910 --> 00:39:21,040
but it's still

1227
00:39:25,510 --> 00:39:23,920
out there and then i read this from

1228
00:39:27,190 --> 00:39:25,520
skolamowski who you said

1229
00:39:28,950 --> 00:39:27,200
you greatly admired at university of

1230
00:39:30,870 --> 00:39:28,960
michigan and he sounds like a

1231
00:39:31,990 --> 00:39:30,880
good friend of mine for 40 years yep

1232
00:39:34,470 --> 00:39:32,000
great

1233
00:39:36,230 --> 00:39:34,480
and you edited uh and collected and

1234
00:39:39,109 --> 00:39:36,240
edited and published helped publish

1235
00:39:41,430 --> 00:39:39,119
his writings here's what he writes this

1236
00:39:44,630 --> 00:39:41,440
new participatory worldview

1237
00:39:47,109 --> 00:39:44,640
explains how the concept of the world

1238
00:39:48,870 --> 00:39:47,119
out there independent of mind is

1239
00:39:52,390 --> 00:39:48,880
incoherent

1240
00:39:55,829 --> 00:39:52,400
right great we must see mind as

1241
00:39:58,790 --> 00:39:55,839
actively shaping and creating the world

1242
00:39:59,829 --> 00:39:58,800
again great even truth itself he argues

1243
00:40:02,870 --> 00:39:59,839
is enmeshed

1244
00:40:05,510 --> 00:40:02,880
in the web of participatory mind

1245
00:40:06,230 --> 00:40:05,520
and all are encompassed by universal

1246
00:40:08,870 --> 00:40:06,240
process

1247
00:40:10,230 --> 00:40:08,880
of cosmic evolution i mean bernard or

1248
00:40:12,230 --> 00:40:10,240
castro could have wrote this this is

1249
00:40:15,589 --> 00:40:12,240
idealism what is uh what is the

1250
00:40:17,270 --> 00:40:15,599
difference here uh well first of all

1251
00:40:18,069 --> 00:40:17,280
scotland muskie never called himself an

1252
00:40:20,950 --> 00:40:18,079
idealist

1253
00:40:22,230 --> 00:40:20,960
ever uh he he had this theory called

1254
00:40:24,550 --> 00:40:22,240
noetic monism

1255
00:40:25,270 --> 00:40:24,560
which is was his favorite term and

1256
00:40:28,950 --> 00:40:25,280
that's in his

1257
00:40:29,910 --> 00:40:28,960
his book participatory mind um

1258
00:40:32,630 --> 00:40:29,920
but there's there's different

1259
00:40:35,109 --> 00:40:32,640
alternatives right so so i guess

1260
00:40:37,109 --> 00:40:35,119
just to sort of complete my argument if

1261
00:40:39,430 --> 00:40:37,119
you start with mechanistic materialism

1262
00:40:40,550 --> 00:40:39,440
but you don't deny the reality of the

1263
00:40:42,630 --> 00:40:40,560
human mind

1264
00:40:44,309 --> 00:40:42,640
there's really only two options either

1265
00:40:46,230 --> 00:40:44,319
it's the miraculous route about

1266
00:40:47,990 --> 00:40:46,240
evolution went along with no mind no

1267
00:40:49,430 --> 00:40:48,000
mind no mind no mine and then suddenly

1268
00:40:51,670 --> 00:40:49,440
at some point

1269
00:40:53,190 --> 00:40:51,680
whatever who knows what jellyfish or

1270
00:40:55,910 --> 00:40:53,200
dinosaurs or you know

1271
00:40:58,069 --> 00:40:55,920
early apes or whatever and zoom suddenly

1272
00:40:59,829 --> 00:40:58,079
they get conscious out of nowhere

1273
00:41:01,349 --> 00:40:59,839
out of no literally out of nowhere which

1274
00:41:04,069 --> 00:41:01,359
is a miracle

1275
00:41:04,550 --> 00:41:04,079
that's one option the other option is no

1276
00:41:06,630 --> 00:41:04,560
that's

1277
00:41:08,309 --> 00:41:06,640
actually what happened was mind built up

1278
00:41:10,630 --> 00:41:08,319
in complexity over time

1279
00:41:11,670 --> 00:41:10,640
just like physical structure builds up

1280
00:41:13,910 --> 00:41:11,680
in complexity or

1281
00:41:15,589 --> 00:41:13,920
over time so the alternative is the pan

1282
00:41:18,550 --> 00:41:15,599
psychist option which says well look

1283
00:41:20,390 --> 00:41:18,560
there's some kind of element of of

1284
00:41:21,430 --> 00:41:20,400
psychic awareness or mind or

1285
00:41:24,309 --> 00:41:21,440
consciousness

1286
00:41:25,270 --> 00:41:24,319
even in the most elementary particles in

1287
00:41:27,190 --> 00:41:25,280
the universe

1288
00:41:29,190 --> 00:41:27,200
and so in this sense mine was there all

1289
00:41:31,349 --> 00:41:29,200
along in in the particles and the sort

1290
00:41:32,550 --> 00:41:31,359
of the base particles and forces and and

1291
00:41:35,109 --> 00:41:32,560
energetic

1292
00:41:36,390 --> 00:41:35,119
elements of the of the early universe

1293
00:41:38,309 --> 00:41:36,400
and it just was sort of there and it

1294
00:41:40,309 --> 00:41:38,319
builds in complexity over time

1295
00:41:42,870 --> 00:41:40,319
just like the physical structure of

1296
00:41:44,790 --> 00:41:42,880
organisms builds in complexity over time

1297
00:41:46,470 --> 00:41:44,800
and so the mind was there all along

1298
00:41:47,990 --> 00:41:46,480
that's the pan cyclist alternative

1299
00:41:49,990 --> 00:41:48,000
that's the one i support

1300
00:41:52,069 --> 00:41:50,000
uh and to me that's that's the only

1301
00:41:53,510 --> 00:41:52,079
logical alternative to the miraculous

1302
00:41:55,190 --> 00:41:53,520
brute emergence

1303
00:41:57,270 --> 00:41:55,200
uh which says boom mine comes out of

1304
00:42:00,870 --> 00:41:57,280
nowhere well i mean the

1305
00:42:03,030 --> 00:42:00,880
the alternative to that is that what

1306
00:42:05,030 --> 00:42:03,040
all the great physicists at the turn of

1307
00:42:06,390 --> 00:42:05,040
the 20th century said when they did the

1308
00:42:08,870 --> 00:42:06,400
double slit consciousness

1309
00:42:10,069 --> 00:42:08,880
experiment which is consciousness is

1310
00:42:11,430 --> 00:42:10,079
fundamental right

1311
00:42:13,349 --> 00:42:11,440
so they're saying consciousness is

1312
00:42:14,230 --> 00:42:13,359
fundamental and matter emerges out of

1313
00:42:15,750 --> 00:42:14,240
consciousness

1314
00:42:18,230 --> 00:42:15,760
and if we look at the foundational

1315
00:42:18,870 --> 00:42:18,240
physics work like cern and everything

1316
00:42:21,109 --> 00:42:18,880
else

1317
00:42:23,349 --> 00:42:21,119
that's what it looks there's no matter

1318
00:42:25,270 --> 00:42:23,359
out there it's all an abstraction

1319
00:42:26,950 --> 00:42:25,280
i i just don't want to get into a big

1320
00:42:27,750 --> 00:42:26,960
argument where we're kind of splitting

1321
00:42:31,190 --> 00:42:27,760
hairs

1322
00:42:32,870 --> 00:42:31,200
but it it i don't i don't see

1323
00:42:35,270 --> 00:42:32,880
why it doesn't fit with the

1324
00:42:37,030 --> 00:42:35,280
consciousness's fundamental argument

1325
00:42:38,630 --> 00:42:37,040
well right so i guess i guess you could

1326
00:42:39,990 --> 00:42:38,640
there's different theoretical positions

1327
00:42:42,150 --> 00:42:40,000
right you could say well look

1328
00:42:43,030 --> 00:42:42,160
consciousness came first and then the

1329
00:42:44,710 --> 00:42:43,040
matter came

1330
00:42:46,390 --> 00:42:44,720
or there's only consciousness and it

1331
00:42:47,109 --> 00:42:46,400
only looks like matter because you take

1332
00:42:49,270 --> 00:42:47,119
a certain uh

1333
00:42:50,710 --> 00:42:49,280
approach or certain viewpoint on the on

1334
00:42:52,870 --> 00:42:50,720
this consciousness or somehow

1335
00:42:54,870 --> 00:42:52,880
the consciousness sort of solidifies

1336
00:42:56,150 --> 00:42:54,880
into particles and so forth but but hold

1337
00:42:58,390 --> 00:42:56,160
on let me just clarify

1338
00:42:59,190 --> 00:42:58,400
isn't that what scoliminsky is saying

1339
00:43:02,390 --> 00:42:59,200
he's saying

1340
00:43:05,270 --> 00:43:02,400
we must see mind as actively shaping

1341
00:43:06,470 --> 00:43:05,280
and creating the world and this is

1342
00:43:10,230 --> 00:43:06,480
neuroplasticity

1343
00:43:12,710 --> 00:43:10,240
we can kind of

1344
00:43:15,670 --> 00:43:12,720
falsify materialism but i think it also

1345
00:43:18,069 --> 00:43:15,680
kind of falsifies pan psychism in that

1346
00:43:18,950 --> 00:43:18,079
middle ground kind of thing well scala

1347
00:43:20,950 --> 00:43:18,960
muskie was

1348
00:43:22,870 --> 00:43:20,960
he was very focused on the human realm

1349
00:43:25,190 --> 00:43:22,880
so he actually talked very little about

1350
00:43:26,309 --> 00:43:25,200
non-human consciousnesses to him that

1351
00:43:27,670 --> 00:43:26,319
was uh

1352
00:43:29,030 --> 00:43:27,680
either i don't know it was not really an

1353
00:43:30,550 --> 00:43:29,040
issue of interest or he felt like he

1354
00:43:33,109 --> 00:43:30,560
couldn't say much so he's talking

1355
00:43:34,470 --> 00:43:33,119
in the realm of human mind yes the human

1356
00:43:36,470 --> 00:43:34,480
mind brings order

1357
00:43:38,870 --> 00:43:36,480
and and it sort of reaches out into the

1358
00:43:40,550 --> 00:43:38,880
world and put imposes order on otherwise

1359
00:43:43,109 --> 00:43:40,560
abstract you know just

1360
00:43:44,550 --> 00:43:43,119
uh incoherent movings about of energy

1361
00:43:47,030 --> 00:43:44,560
and matter whatever in

1362
00:43:48,550 --> 00:43:47,040
in the universe so in that sense our

1363
00:43:50,470 --> 00:43:48,560
mind sort of reaches out in the world

1364
00:43:52,390 --> 00:43:50,480
and sort of creates that reality the

1365
00:43:54,150 --> 00:43:52,400
world that becomes real for us

1366
00:43:55,750 --> 00:43:54,160
the the implication is that anything

1367
00:43:57,829 --> 00:43:55,760
that has a mind does the same

1368
00:43:59,670 --> 00:43:57,839
thing so if you allow that animals for

1369
00:44:00,870 --> 00:43:59,680
example have minds chimpanzees or

1370
00:44:02,470 --> 00:44:00,880
dolphins or whatever

1371
00:44:04,470 --> 00:44:02,480
they too must also from their

1372
00:44:06,309 --> 00:44:04,480
perspective reach out into the world

1373
00:44:07,829 --> 00:44:06,319
and their minds create a reality for

1374
00:44:09,670 --> 00:44:07,839
them and it's a different kind of

1375
00:44:11,670 --> 00:44:09,680
reality for a chimpanzee or for a

1376
00:44:13,349 --> 00:44:11,680
dolphin or for a whale or whatever

1377
00:44:15,430 --> 00:44:13,359
and of course this goes right down the

1378
00:44:17,990 --> 00:44:15,440
line so you can say well look any animal

1379
00:44:19,750 --> 00:44:18,000
i would say has a kind of conscious mind

1380
00:44:21,030 --> 00:44:19,760
it's mine however simple it might be

1381
00:44:23,589 --> 00:44:21,040
reaches out in the world

1382
00:44:24,550 --> 00:44:23,599
shape set reality creates that reality

1383
00:44:26,150 --> 00:44:24,560
for it

1384
00:44:27,990 --> 00:44:26,160
and it makes a reality that that's

1385
00:44:30,150 --> 00:44:28,000
coherent for that type of

1386
00:44:31,910 --> 00:44:30,160
for that being for that type of mind so

1387
00:44:32,630 --> 00:44:31,920
you could argue that everything in a pan

1388
00:44:34,069 --> 00:44:32,640
psychist view

1389
00:44:36,230 --> 00:44:34,079
everything has that little mental

1390
00:44:38,150 --> 00:44:36,240
ability to kind of reach out and shape

1391
00:44:40,069 --> 00:44:38,160
the world the universe in a certain way

1392
00:44:42,550 --> 00:44:40,079
and to create the reality from its own

1393
00:44:45,510 --> 00:44:42,560
perspective so that's the pan cyclist

1394
00:44:46,150 --> 00:44:45,520
position i think yeah i just don't think

1395
00:44:48,309 --> 00:44:46,160
it

1396
00:44:50,470 --> 00:44:48,319
tackles all the data like if you look at

1397
00:44:52,230 --> 00:44:50,480
i'll stick with neuroplasticity for a

1398
00:44:53,190 --> 00:44:52,240
minute and if you look at dr jeffrey

1399
00:44:56,790 --> 00:44:53,200
schwartz at

1400
00:44:57,589 --> 00:44:56,800
ucla and he's probably published as much

1401
00:44:59,750 --> 00:44:57,599
as anyone

1402
00:45:01,829 --> 00:44:59,760
on pan psychism as it relates to

1403
00:45:02,950 --> 00:45:01,839
consciousness and what he found in

1404
00:45:05,589 --> 00:45:02,960
working with

1405
00:45:06,150 --> 00:45:05,599
patients who are suffering from ocd is

1406
00:45:09,270 --> 00:45:06,160
that

1407
00:45:10,790 --> 00:45:09,280
this mind-body problem which isn't

1408
00:45:11,430 --> 00:45:10,800
really a problem it's always been

1409
00:45:14,470 --> 00:45:11,440
answered

1410
00:45:15,589 --> 00:45:14,480
is that mind is shaping body so in his

1411
00:45:18,150 --> 00:45:15,599
patients

1412
00:45:19,030 --> 00:45:18,160
their mind is changing the cell

1413
00:45:22,150 --> 00:45:19,040
structure

1414
00:45:23,349 --> 00:45:22,160
of their brains so it's not it's partly

1415
00:45:25,510 --> 00:45:23,359
what you're saying

1416
00:45:27,030 --> 00:45:25,520
it's partly reaching out and

1417
00:45:29,109 --> 00:45:27,040
interpreting the world

1418
00:45:31,510 --> 00:45:29,119
but clearly at this point it's reaching

1419
00:45:33,829 --> 00:45:31,520
out and reshaping the world it is

1420
00:45:34,710 --> 00:45:33,839
in fact creating the world and i don't

1421
00:45:37,829 --> 00:45:34,720
see how you can

1422
00:45:39,750 --> 00:45:37,839
really interpret the double slit

1423
00:45:41,990 --> 00:45:39,760
experiment any further you know and then

1424
00:45:42,550 --> 00:45:42,000
i i'll stop there but then we can talk

1425
00:45:44,230 --> 00:45:42,560
about

1426
00:45:46,309 --> 00:45:44,240
dean rayden in his double slit

1427
00:45:48,950 --> 00:45:46,319
experiment with the meditator where

1428
00:45:49,990 --> 00:45:48,960
they're obviously affecting the photon

1429
00:45:52,150 --> 00:45:50,000
beam they're not just

1430
00:45:53,510 --> 00:45:52,160
reaching out and shaping the world

1431
00:45:56,470 --> 00:45:53,520
they're changing

1432
00:45:58,950 --> 00:45:56,480
our physicalist measurements of the

1433
00:46:01,829 --> 00:46:00,390
right so i mean you got to be careful

1434
00:46:03,349 --> 00:46:01,839
because there's several issues going on

1435
00:46:05,109 --> 00:46:03,359
here right so one is when you start

1436
00:46:06,870 --> 00:46:05,119
talking about the mind versus the world

1437
00:46:08,710 --> 00:46:06,880
it starts to sound like dualism

1438
00:46:10,230 --> 00:46:08,720
right so metaphysical dualism says but

1439
00:46:11,190 --> 00:46:10,240
you get you get what i'm saying i mean

1440
00:46:12,309 --> 00:46:11,200
the words kind of

1441
00:46:14,309 --> 00:46:12,319
how are you going to how are you going

1442
00:46:15,270 --> 00:46:14,319
to talk about this stuff i agree i agree

1443
00:46:17,030 --> 00:46:15,280
i totally agree it's

1444
00:46:18,710 --> 00:46:17,040
hard to talk about it but we have to we

1445
00:46:20,630 --> 00:46:18,720
have to keep it in our minds

1446
00:46:22,950 --> 00:46:20,640
are are we talking about two things like

1447
00:46:24,309 --> 00:46:22,960
the mind and the physical world

1448
00:46:26,870 --> 00:46:24,319
and then they're working on each other

1449
00:46:28,390 --> 00:46:26,880
or this one's driving that or vice versa

1450
00:46:30,630 --> 00:46:28,400
is that the case or is it really a

1451
00:46:32,790 --> 00:46:30,640
modest system in which you really have

1452
00:46:34,870 --> 00:46:32,800
one basic reality which has to have one

1453
00:46:37,190 --> 00:46:34,880
basic set of characteristics

1454
00:46:38,069 --> 00:46:37,200
and and you know it's very hard going

1455
00:46:40,710 --> 00:46:38,079
back to descartes

1456
00:46:41,589 --> 00:46:40,720
very hard to defend any real form of

1457
00:46:43,750 --> 00:46:41,599
dualism

1458
00:46:45,510 --> 00:46:43,760
because it has it promotes ins

1459
00:46:46,950 --> 00:46:45,520
insurmountable problems about

1460
00:46:49,829 --> 00:46:46,960
how did this come about how does the

1461
00:46:51,270 --> 00:46:49,839
interaction work you know what

1462
00:46:53,829 --> 00:46:51,280
how does it affect how we know about

1463
00:46:55,510 --> 00:46:53,839
things and so forth it's the dualism

1464
00:46:57,589 --> 00:46:55,520
i mean serious philosophers almost

1465
00:46:59,270 --> 00:46:57,599
completely push the duelist

1466
00:47:00,950 --> 00:46:59,280
options to the side and say look this is

1467
00:47:02,630 --> 00:47:00,960
just simply untenable

1468
00:47:04,550 --> 00:47:02,640
right but we have the experiments we

1469
00:47:05,910 --> 00:47:04,560
have to deal with

1470
00:47:07,990 --> 00:47:05,920
yeah that's fine but you can still

1471
00:47:09,990 --> 00:47:08,000
explain those in a modest framework so

1472
00:47:10,630 --> 00:47:10,000
the question is for most philosophers of

1473
00:47:11,750 --> 00:47:10,640
mind is

1474
00:47:13,750 --> 00:47:11,760
all right well look we've got to be a

1475
00:47:16,550 --> 00:47:13,760
modest of some kind uh

1476
00:47:17,990 --> 00:47:16,560
a plausible modest so how we can explain

1477
00:47:19,430 --> 00:47:18,000
right physics and the results of the

1478
00:47:21,190 --> 00:47:19,440
world and what we know about things and

1479
00:47:23,270 --> 00:47:21,200
personal experience and intuition

1480
00:47:24,630 --> 00:47:23,280
how can we explain that in a modest

1481
00:47:27,430 --> 00:47:24,640
framework when there's not

1482
00:47:29,030 --> 00:47:27,440
mind and reality or whatever you know

1483
00:47:30,710 --> 00:47:29,040
two separate things which is very hard

1484
00:47:33,109 --> 00:47:30,720
to explain how that came about

1485
00:47:33,990 --> 00:47:33,119
it's much more coherent cohesive and

1486
00:47:35,510 --> 00:47:34,000
coherent

1487
00:47:37,349 --> 00:47:35,520
to explain things within a minus

1488
00:47:37,990 --> 00:47:37,359
framework so now so now what's the

1489
00:47:39,829 --> 00:47:38,000
relation between

1490
00:47:41,349 --> 00:47:39,839
what we call mind and what we call

1491
00:47:43,190 --> 00:47:41,359
matter or body or

1492
00:47:44,950 --> 00:47:43,200
or physical reality what's that

1493
00:47:45,430 --> 00:47:44,960
relationship when there's really only

1494
00:47:47,430 --> 00:47:45,440
one

1495
00:47:48,950 --> 00:47:47,440
ultimate substance in the world now you

1496
00:47:50,549 --> 00:47:48,960
could say it's all just matter

1497
00:47:52,390 --> 00:47:50,559
that's materialism you could say it's

1498
00:47:54,950 --> 00:47:52,400
all really just mind

1499
00:47:56,309 --> 00:47:54,960
which is the idealist scheme or you can

1500
00:47:58,470 --> 00:47:56,319
take sort of a different approach a kind

1501
00:48:00,630 --> 00:47:58,480
of a neutral modest approach or a dual

1502
00:48:02,309 --> 00:48:00,640
aspect approach which is what i favor

1503
00:48:04,710 --> 00:48:02,319
which says well look some in some sense

1504
00:48:06,630 --> 00:48:04,720
reality has sort of both these qualities

1505
00:48:08,309 --> 00:48:06,640
it's kind of like on the inside and the

1506
00:48:09,430 --> 00:48:08,319
outside when you look at things from the

1507
00:48:11,030 --> 00:48:09,440
outside

1508
00:48:12,630 --> 00:48:11,040
what you see is the physical qualities

1509
00:48:14,790 --> 00:48:12,640
you see them as matter and

1510
00:48:16,150 --> 00:48:14,800
and physical stuff when you look at them

1511
00:48:18,230 --> 00:48:16,160
on the inside

1512
00:48:20,390 --> 00:48:18,240
you see the mental qualities things as

1513
00:48:21,670 --> 00:48:20,400
in minded or conscious beings

1514
00:48:23,510 --> 00:48:21,680
and really the only thing that we know

1515
00:48:25,349 --> 00:48:23,520
on the inside is ourselves this is where

1516
00:48:27,030 --> 00:48:25,359
we have to start we can feel ourselves

1517
00:48:28,630 --> 00:48:27,040
on the inside this is why

1518
00:48:30,069 --> 00:48:28,640
we are aware of things as a conscious

1519
00:48:31,589 --> 00:48:30,079
being uh

1520
00:48:33,670 --> 00:48:31,599
and and we cannot draw those same

1521
00:48:35,670 --> 00:48:33,680
conclusions except by inference from

1522
00:48:36,870 --> 00:48:35,680
other people this is a long-standing

1523
00:48:37,510 --> 00:48:36,880
problem it's called the problem of other

1524
00:48:39,750 --> 00:48:37,520
minds

1525
00:48:41,670 --> 00:48:39,760
it works even with humans actually it's

1526
00:48:42,950 --> 00:48:41,680
actually very hard

1527
00:48:44,950 --> 00:48:42,960
believe it or not to prove that other

1528
00:48:46,390 --> 00:48:44,960
people have minds right if i

1529
00:48:48,630 --> 00:48:46,400
if i ask you to prove to me that you

1530
00:48:50,069 --> 00:48:48,640
have mind there's really nothing you can

1531
00:48:52,390 --> 00:48:50,079
say that can prove to me that

1532
00:48:54,630 --> 00:48:52,400
that you do and and vice versa for me we

1533
00:48:56,309 --> 00:48:54,640
have a really a very hard time

1534
00:48:57,990 --> 00:48:56,319
uh just convincing each other that we

1535
00:48:58,630 --> 00:48:58,000
really have minds i mean it sounds kind

1536
00:49:02,470 --> 00:48:58,640
of

1537
00:49:04,470 --> 00:49:02,480
because there's arguments from

1538
00:49:06,150 --> 00:49:04,480
inference and analogical arguments which

1539
00:49:08,230 --> 00:49:06,160
says well this is highly probable it's

1540
00:49:08,870 --> 00:49:08,240
extremely probable that all humans have

1541
00:49:10,470 --> 00:49:08,880
minds

1542
00:49:12,150 --> 00:49:10,480
so we generally don't bother ourselves

1543
00:49:13,670 --> 00:49:12,160
with it but it actually took to prove it

1544
00:49:15,990 --> 00:49:13,680
is extremely difficult

1545
00:49:18,069 --> 00:49:16,000
arguably impossible and the same thing

1546
00:49:18,710 --> 00:49:18,079
applies to animal minds and plant minds

1547
00:49:21,430 --> 00:49:18,720
and in

1548
00:49:23,510 --> 00:49:21,440
inanimate minds as well there's a kind

1549
00:49:24,069 --> 00:49:23,520
of analogical or inferential argument

1550
00:49:25,910 --> 00:49:24,079
says

1551
00:49:27,750 --> 00:49:25,920
the most plausible outcome is those

1552
00:49:30,069 --> 00:49:27,760
things also have

1553
00:49:32,309 --> 00:49:30,079
internal aspects by which they view the

1554
00:49:33,990 --> 00:49:32,319
world which we cannot see because we are

1555
00:49:35,109 --> 00:49:34,000
not an animal we're not a plant we're

1556
00:49:37,510 --> 00:49:35,119
not a rock

1557
00:49:39,030 --> 00:49:37,520
uh to to us those look like physical

1558
00:49:41,270 --> 00:49:39,040
things that are following physical laws

1559
00:49:43,270 --> 00:49:41,280
of nature but in the same sense

1560
00:49:45,109 --> 00:49:43,280
that's entirely plausible in fact it's

1561
00:49:48,150 --> 00:49:45,119
probable that they also have an

1562
00:49:50,390 --> 00:49:48,160
interior aspect which we cannot see

1563
00:49:51,990 --> 00:49:50,400
which is shared by all of reality that's

1564
00:49:54,710 --> 00:49:52,000
the monistic aspect

1565
00:49:55,829 --> 00:49:54,720
uh and and to me that's that's the most

1566
00:49:58,710 --> 00:49:55,839
plausible most

1567
00:50:00,150 --> 00:49:58,720
coherent explanation of things yeah i

1568
00:50:02,950 --> 00:50:00,160
mean i think now we're

1569
00:50:04,549 --> 00:50:02,960
there there really isn't the argument

1570
00:50:07,430 --> 00:50:04,559
here doesn't seem to have

1571
00:50:09,190 --> 00:50:07,440
much substance to it really to me it

1572
00:50:12,230 --> 00:50:09,200
seems to be this

1573
00:50:15,030 --> 00:50:12,240
especially when we look at the entire

1574
00:50:15,430 --> 00:50:15,040
you know business of science which is

1575
00:50:18,950 --> 00:50:15,440
still

1576
00:50:21,349 --> 00:50:18,960
completely wed to materialism

1577
00:50:22,150 --> 00:50:21,359
and that consciousness is an illusion

1578
00:50:23,829 --> 00:50:22,160
and that

1579
00:50:25,430 --> 00:50:23,839
you are a biological robot and

1580
00:50:28,309 --> 00:50:25,440
meaningless universe i mean

1581
00:50:30,150 --> 00:50:28,319
comparing that to quibbling over uh

1582
00:50:32,710 --> 00:50:30,160
these these minor things where we're

1583
00:50:33,829 --> 00:50:32,720
both saying the the same thing about

1584
00:50:36,470 --> 00:50:33,839
mind and there isn't

1585
00:50:38,069 --> 00:50:36,480
anything out there to measure so i i'm

1586
00:50:40,069 --> 00:50:38,079
tempted to move past that but

1587
00:50:41,349 --> 00:50:40,079
i can't because i just want one little

1588
00:50:43,430 --> 00:50:41,359
thing

1589
00:50:44,870 --> 00:50:43,440
here's the pushback with philosophers

1590
00:50:45,270 --> 00:50:44,880
i've talked to so many philosophers on

1591
00:50:47,589 --> 00:50:45,280
this

1592
00:50:48,630 --> 00:50:47,599
show but i've often also talked to so

1593
00:50:51,349 --> 00:50:48,640
many physicists

1594
00:50:51,349 --> 00:50:52,230
and physicists just don't stand for that

1595
00:50:55,270 --> 00:50:54,230
if you talk to a physicist he'll point

1596
00:50:57,430 --> 00:50:55,280
to the data

1597
00:50:58,870 --> 00:50:57,440
if you talk to uh jeffrey schwartz he'll

1598
00:51:00,790 --> 00:50:58,880
point to the data and he said

1599
00:51:03,030 --> 00:51:00,800
so we have the experiment here's the

1600
00:51:05,829 --> 00:51:03,040
data that comes back

1601
00:51:07,670 --> 00:51:05,839
explain it make it make sense and you

1602
00:51:10,150 --> 00:51:07,680
know when you take jeffrey schwartz

1603
00:51:11,510 --> 00:51:10,160
and you take the fact that the mind body

1604
00:51:13,910 --> 00:51:11,520
problem is now

1605
00:51:15,589 --> 00:51:13,920
visible in this experiment that the mind

1606
00:51:16,710 --> 00:51:15,599
is creating the body the mind is

1607
00:51:18,470 --> 00:51:16,720
creating

1608
00:51:20,230 --> 00:51:18,480
it's it's back to what scallomowski is

1609
00:51:21,430 --> 00:51:20,240
saying about creating the world that's

1610
00:51:23,829 --> 00:51:21,440
jeffrey schwartz is saying

1611
00:51:24,549 --> 00:51:23,839
you are creating the world and i mean

1612
00:51:27,030 --> 00:51:24,559
the in

1613
00:51:29,109 --> 00:51:27,040
so many wisdom traditions including the

1614
00:51:31,510 --> 00:51:29,119
tibetan buddhists on down are saying

1615
00:51:32,950 --> 00:51:31,520
yes you are literally creating the world

1616
00:51:36,710 --> 00:51:32,960
so

1617
00:51:40,870 --> 00:51:36,720
why the quibble over you know

1618
00:51:42,150 --> 00:51:40,880
combinatorial bottom-up uh pan psychism

1619
00:51:43,829 --> 00:51:42,160
it's actually not equivalent right so

1620
00:51:44,309 --> 00:51:43,839
we're talking what's what's ultimately

1621
00:51:47,030 --> 00:51:44,319
real

1622
00:51:47,510 --> 00:51:47,040
in the universe right and and there's

1623
00:51:48,870 --> 00:51:47,520
really

1624
00:51:50,390 --> 00:51:48,880
as far as we know i mean there's a

1625
00:51:52,150 --> 00:51:50,400
handful of options what's ultimately

1626
00:51:55,030 --> 00:51:52,160
real is physical stuff

1627
00:51:56,470 --> 00:51:55,040
what's ultimately real is mental stuff

1628
00:51:57,750 --> 00:51:56,480
you can call the mental stuff god

1629
00:52:01,109 --> 00:51:57,760
but we don't have any argument on that

1630
00:52:03,030 --> 00:52:01,119
we there there is no ultimate reality to

1631
00:52:05,190 --> 00:52:03,040
physical stuff right it's just

1632
00:52:06,950 --> 00:52:05,200
we just found a way to measure it okay

1633
00:52:07,349 --> 00:52:06,960
so so there's no ultimate reality or

1634
00:52:09,589 --> 00:52:07,359
it's an

1635
00:52:11,270 --> 00:52:09,599
unknowable ultimate reality is that i i

1636
00:52:12,470 --> 00:52:11,280
guess right you could say that well

1637
00:52:13,510 --> 00:52:12,480
we could say well we just don't know

1638
00:52:15,030 --> 00:52:13,520
it's like it's like saying well what

1639
00:52:16,309 --> 00:52:15,040
happened before the big bang well

1640
00:52:17,510 --> 00:52:16,319
we have no way of knowing that so we're

1641
00:52:19,430 --> 00:52:17,520
just going to forget about that whole

1642
00:52:21,270 --> 00:52:19,440
issue i guess you could say

1643
00:52:22,790 --> 00:52:21,280
well we we don't we we have no way of

1644
00:52:24,790 --> 00:52:22,800
knowing what's ultimately real so we can

1645
00:52:26,870 --> 00:52:24,800
just sweep that whole thing aside

1646
00:52:28,150 --> 00:52:26,880
i i don't know that's not what we're

1647
00:52:29,430 --> 00:52:28,160
saying i mean that's not what i'm saying

1648
00:52:31,030 --> 00:52:29,440
i don't think that's what you're saying

1649
00:52:32,630 --> 00:52:31,040
what i'm saying is

1650
00:52:34,950 --> 00:52:32,640
what i think science is saying and where

1651
00:52:37,910 --> 00:52:34,960
science gets hung up if there's a

1652
00:52:39,510 --> 00:52:37,920
validity to to scientific materialism is

1653
00:52:39,910 --> 00:52:39,520
that it's the shut up and calculate

1654
00:52:42,230 --> 00:52:39,920
thing

1655
00:52:43,829 --> 00:52:42,240
it's the screw the philosophical

1656
00:52:45,829 --> 00:52:43,839
let's just get on to

1657
00:52:47,109 --> 00:52:45,839
uh measuring the stuff and seeing if we

1658
00:52:48,630 --> 00:52:47,119
can build more iphones

1659
00:52:50,309 --> 00:52:48,640
and i think that has a big attraction to

1660
00:52:52,710 --> 00:52:50,319
people and and i get it

1661
00:52:54,710 --> 00:52:52,720
but in both cases we're just talking

1662
00:52:57,030 --> 00:52:54,720
about the results of

1663
00:52:58,150 --> 00:52:57,040
measurements and abstractions that they

1664
00:52:59,829 --> 00:52:58,160
are

1665
00:53:02,309 --> 00:52:59,839
all the fundamental physics tells us

1666
00:53:05,430 --> 00:53:02,319
there isn't an ultimate reality to that

1667
00:53:05,829 --> 00:53:05,440
the higgs at cern it's nothing there

1668
00:53:08,230 --> 00:53:05,839
isn't

1669
00:53:09,349 --> 00:53:08,240
a higgs that we don't have it all we

1670
00:53:11,510 --> 00:53:09,359
have is what's left

1671
00:53:12,390 --> 00:53:11,520
after it leaves so it's all an

1672
00:53:14,230 --> 00:53:12,400
abstraction

1673
00:53:15,670 --> 00:53:14,240
and i think physics accepts that and

1674
00:53:16,150 --> 00:53:15,680
just says okay but we can still work

1675
00:53:18,309 --> 00:53:16,160
with that

1676
00:53:19,990 --> 00:53:18,319
abstraction we can still measure stuff

1677
00:53:21,910 --> 00:53:20,000
and we can build more iphones so let's

1678
00:53:22,870 --> 00:53:21,920
get on with it

1679
00:53:25,270 --> 00:53:22,880
so we're back to the problem of

1680
00:53:27,430 --> 00:53:25,280
technology by the way which is actually

1681
00:53:29,109 --> 00:53:27,440
which is actually so i've sort of said

1682
00:53:30,630 --> 00:53:29,119
look you make mistakes when you don't

1683
00:53:32,630 --> 00:53:30,640
understand the metaphysics and you make

1684
00:53:34,470 --> 00:53:32,640
bad metaphysical assumptions

1685
00:53:36,230 --> 00:53:34,480
so you know the way i've explained to my

1686
00:53:37,109 --> 00:53:36,240
students i i will hold up sort of a

1687
00:53:39,829 --> 00:53:37,119
metaphorical

1688
00:53:40,390 --> 00:53:39,839
coin right a giant quarter and i say

1689
00:53:42,150 --> 00:53:40,400
well look

1690
00:53:43,510 --> 00:53:42,160
here's a coin it has two sides it has

1691
00:53:44,790 --> 00:53:43,520
heads and tails

1692
00:53:46,630 --> 00:53:44,800
and i say well look if i show you the

1693
00:53:48,470 --> 00:53:46,640
head side you can see the whole whole

1694
00:53:49,829 --> 00:53:48,480
coin and it looks like heads

1695
00:53:51,270 --> 00:53:49,839
and if i turn it around this way and i

1696
00:53:53,030 --> 00:53:51,280
say well look you can see the whole coin

1697
00:53:55,109 --> 00:53:53,040
it looks like tails

1698
00:53:57,270 --> 00:53:55,119
so if i show it this way or this way you

1699
00:53:58,950 --> 00:53:57,280
can see the whole coin

1700
00:54:01,109 --> 00:53:58,960
to me that's a perfect metaphor for the

1701
00:54:02,309 --> 00:54:01,119
world the world on one side looks like

1702
00:54:04,069 --> 00:54:02,319
physical stuff

1703
00:54:05,349 --> 00:54:04,079
and if i'm a scientist or a physicist

1704
00:54:07,349 --> 00:54:05,359
and i look at the world and i say

1705
00:54:08,790 --> 00:54:07,359
i see the whole shebang and it's just

1706
00:54:10,710 --> 00:54:08,800
physical stuff man

1707
00:54:12,549 --> 00:54:10,720
it's just particles and energy and

1708
00:54:13,270 --> 00:54:12,559
calculations and physical laws i can do

1709
00:54:15,190 --> 00:54:13,280
the whole thing

1710
00:54:17,510 --> 00:54:15,200
that's the whole shebang and in one

1711
00:54:18,069 --> 00:54:17,520
sense it is but you're only seeing one

1712
00:54:20,150 --> 00:54:18,079
side

1713
00:54:21,910 --> 00:54:20,160
of the whole thing because it doesn't

1714
00:54:23,589 --> 00:54:21,920
explain what's going on in here

1715
00:54:25,589 --> 00:54:23,599
i can turn that picture around and i can

1716
00:54:27,910 --> 00:54:25,599
say look i can describe the whole world

1717
00:54:29,589 --> 00:54:27,920
in mental processes and mental concepts

1718
00:54:31,270 --> 00:54:29,599
this is the argument for idealism by the

1719
00:54:32,710 --> 00:54:31,280
way i can describe the whole universe

1720
00:54:34,150 --> 00:54:32,720
and mental concepts

1721
00:54:35,349 --> 00:54:34,160
and then and then i'm still describing

1722
00:54:37,270 --> 00:54:35,359
the whole universe because i'm showing

1723
00:54:38,870 --> 00:54:37,280
you the other side of it

1724
00:54:40,710 --> 00:54:38,880
and and you know you can't get from the

1725
00:54:41,589 --> 00:54:40,720
one side to the other the physical guys

1726
00:54:43,109 --> 00:54:41,599
can't get to the

1727
00:54:44,710 --> 00:54:43,119
mental side and the mental guys can't

1728
00:54:46,470 --> 00:54:44,720
get to the physical side

1729
00:54:48,069 --> 00:54:46,480
so you have these funny difficulty

1730
00:54:49,270 --> 00:54:48,079
difficulties going on

1731
00:54:51,510 --> 00:54:49,280
in terms of the metaphysics of

1732
00:54:53,349 --> 00:54:51,520
explaining how this stuff works but but

1733
00:54:54,789 --> 00:54:53,359
we're guaranteed you are mistaken if you

1734
00:54:56,069 --> 00:54:54,799
take one side of the coin and say

1735
00:54:58,069 --> 00:54:56,079
there's not another side

1736
00:54:59,829 --> 00:54:58,079
you're guaranteed to be mistaken in fact

1737
00:55:01,510 --> 00:54:59,839
you're obviously mistaken because

1738
00:55:03,670 --> 00:55:01,520
what's real about the world is not the

1739
00:55:05,589 --> 00:55:03,680
physical reality that's not true the

1740
00:55:07,349 --> 00:55:05,599
most real fact about the entire universe

1741
00:55:09,430 --> 00:55:07,359
is that you have conscious awareness

1742
00:55:12,150 --> 00:55:09,440
period that's fact number one every

1743
00:55:12,789 --> 00:55:12,160
other fact is a dubious speculation on

1744
00:55:15,270 --> 00:55:12,799
your part

1745
00:55:16,549 --> 00:55:15,280
outside of that fact so this is this is

1746
00:55:18,069 --> 00:55:16,559
the kind of the starting point that you

1747
00:55:21,190 --> 00:55:18,079
have to go by

1748
00:55:23,670 --> 00:55:21,200
totally agree and

1749
00:55:25,190 --> 00:55:23,680
and i think well so so so your physicist

1750
00:55:26,390 --> 00:55:25,200
guys are dead flat wrong because they

1751
00:55:28,789 --> 00:55:26,400
know nothing about

1752
00:55:30,549 --> 00:55:28,799
sort of the entire the most real fact of

1753
00:55:31,910 --> 00:55:30,559
existence which is their consciousness

1754
00:55:32,870 --> 00:55:31,920
because they can't explain it they don't

1755
00:55:33,750 --> 00:55:32,880
know what it is they don't know where it

1756
00:55:35,589 --> 00:55:33,760
comes from they don't know

1757
00:55:37,109 --> 00:55:35,599
how it changes the effects of physical

1758
00:55:38,230 --> 00:55:37,119
experiments they don't know any of that

1759
00:55:39,750 --> 00:55:38,240
they don't know squat

1760
00:55:41,430 --> 00:55:39,760
because and they just claim well i don't

1761
00:55:42,789 --> 00:55:41,440
care i'll just sort of wish i'll just

1762
00:55:43,670 --> 00:55:42,799
toss that away and those philosophers

1763
00:55:45,109 --> 00:55:43,680
are all confused

1764
00:55:46,390 --> 00:55:45,119
and i'll just deal with these pair

1765
00:55:47,910 --> 00:55:46,400
experiments and particles and i'll just

1766
00:55:49,589 --> 00:55:47,920
make my cell phones yeah of course you

1767
00:55:51,109 --> 00:55:49,599
can do that but you're making mistakes

1768
00:55:52,309 --> 00:55:51,119
you're making metaphysical mistakes

1769
00:55:53,829 --> 00:55:52,319
because you don't understand the nature

1770
00:55:55,990 --> 00:55:53,839
of reality when you do that

1771
00:55:57,589 --> 00:55:56,000
david i got 100 shows on that and my

1772
00:56:00,950 --> 00:55:57,599
physicist guys are guys like

1773
00:56:03,109 --> 00:56:00,960
don hoffman at uc irvine who's super

1774
00:56:04,870 --> 00:56:03,119
respected and is looking at a a

1775
00:56:06,870 --> 00:56:04,880
mathematical model for consciousness but

1776
00:56:09,990 --> 00:56:06,880
he's completely post materialist

1777
00:56:11,670 --> 00:56:10,000
i mean materialism is just sure

1778
00:56:13,430 --> 00:56:11,680
yeah i mean it doesn't it doesn't make

1779
00:56:15,109 --> 00:56:13,440
sense for any thinking

1780
00:56:16,630 --> 00:56:15,119
person exactly that's that's what that's

1781
00:56:17,910 --> 00:56:16,640
exactly what that's exactly right it

1782
00:56:19,190 --> 00:56:17,920
does not make sense

1783
00:56:21,349 --> 00:56:19,200
and you have lots of difficult

1784
00:56:23,829 --> 00:56:21,359
challenges to to make it make sense

1785
00:56:24,789 --> 00:56:23,839
but physicists are in a poor position

1786
00:56:26,470 --> 00:56:24,799
i'm sorry i just

1787
00:56:27,829 --> 00:56:26,480
you know hoffman all these guys aside

1788
00:56:29,270 --> 00:56:27,839
i'm sure they're smart guys but they're

1789
00:56:31,190 --> 00:56:29,280
in a very poor position

1790
00:56:33,109 --> 00:56:31,200
to make that jump from their physical

1791
00:56:35,349 --> 00:56:33,119
backgrounds to the mental

1792
00:56:36,630 --> 00:56:35,359
the the mental aspect backgrounds and

1793
00:56:38,870 --> 00:56:36,640
try to explain this

1794
00:56:40,470 --> 00:56:38,880
uh i mean i've read lots of physicists

1795
00:56:42,470 --> 00:56:40,480
and and they make sort of you know nice

1796
00:56:45,030 --> 00:56:42,480
insights and my nice little comments but

1797
00:56:46,390 --> 00:56:45,040
they're really no position to sort of to

1798
00:56:48,390 --> 00:56:46,400
really understand sort of the whole

1799
00:56:49,829 --> 00:56:48,400
the whole the the realm of metaphysical

1800
00:56:51,990 --> 00:56:49,839
issues that goes along with it and try

1801
00:56:53,750 --> 00:56:52,000
to make that full explanation i think i

1802
00:56:55,109 --> 00:56:53,760
think hoffman is and i mean i think the

1803
00:56:58,190 --> 00:56:55,119
pushback on hoffman

1804
00:57:00,789 --> 00:56:58,200
is that mathematics is a more

1805
00:57:02,710 --> 00:57:00,799
parsimonious way of talking about this

1806
00:57:05,030 --> 00:57:02,720
than philosophical

1807
00:57:06,069 --> 00:57:05,040
that's what he says he says let's run

1808
00:57:08,390 --> 00:57:06,079
experiments

1809
00:57:11,030 --> 00:57:08,400
and let's see the data that we get back

1810
00:57:12,950 --> 00:57:11,040
which we understand is an abstraction

1811
00:57:15,030 --> 00:57:12,960
but let's see if we can make it fit you

1812
00:57:15,430 --> 00:57:15,040
can't take jeffrey schwartz and jam that

1813
00:57:17,990 --> 00:57:15,440
back

1814
00:57:19,910 --> 00:57:18,000
into a bottom-up pan psychism model i

1815
00:57:21,349 --> 00:57:19,920
mean you can but but in the same way

1816
00:57:23,270 --> 00:57:21,359
that you respond to my email say

1817
00:57:24,950 --> 00:57:23,280
hey we can get around that problem it

1818
00:57:28,309 --> 00:57:24,960
just sounds like a lot of

1819
00:57:30,390 --> 00:57:28,319
extra work to get around the idea that

1820
00:57:31,829 --> 00:57:30,400
uh bottom-up pan psychism that there's

1821
00:57:33,430 --> 00:57:31,839
all these little consciousness beings

1822
00:57:35,349 --> 00:57:33,440
and when it reaches some

1823
00:57:37,030 --> 00:57:35,359
its emergence again we don't know what

1824
00:57:38,309 --> 00:57:37,040
the you know fundamental elements are

1825
00:57:39,190 --> 00:57:38,319
but it reaches some point it

1826
00:57:41,349 --> 00:57:39,200
automatically

1827
00:57:43,430 --> 00:57:41,359
emerges it winds up sounding like the

1828
00:57:45,190 --> 00:57:43,440
same give me one miracle and i can

1829
00:57:47,589 --> 00:57:45,200
explain the rest kind of stuff yeah

1830
00:57:49,109 --> 00:57:47,599
well no it's it it's it it combines it

1831
00:57:50,789 --> 00:57:49,119
grows in complexity just like matter

1832
00:57:51,589 --> 00:57:50,799
grows in complexity so that's not i mean

1833
00:57:52,789 --> 00:57:51,599
there's

1834
00:57:53,990 --> 00:57:52,799
you don't have any proof of that though

1835
00:57:55,030 --> 00:57:54,000
you don't have any proof of that that's

1836
00:57:57,990 --> 00:57:55,040
just the theory right

1837
00:57:59,430 --> 00:57:58,000
uh yeah okay sure right i mean right we

1838
00:58:00,870 --> 00:57:59,440
can't prove much of anything we're

1839
00:58:02,789 --> 00:58:00,880
speculating about evolution of matter

1840
00:58:04,390 --> 00:58:02,799
and complexity in the universe right

1841
00:58:05,670 --> 00:58:04,400
so but the but the problem is with

1842
00:58:06,950 --> 00:58:05,680
hoffman and these guys you've got all

1843
00:58:08,230 --> 00:58:06,960
the mathematics in the world you've got

1844
00:58:09,910 --> 00:58:08,240
all the experiments in the world you'll

1845
00:58:11,750 --> 00:58:09,920
never get to conscious awareness

1846
00:58:13,750 --> 00:58:11,760
never in a million billion years will

1847
00:58:15,670 --> 00:58:13,760
you get from that to conscious awareness

1848
00:58:17,190 --> 00:58:15,680
because there is an inexplainable gap

1849
00:58:18,870 --> 00:58:17,200
on there on one side of the universe and

1850
00:58:21,109 --> 00:58:18,880
they cannot get to the other side

1851
00:58:21,990 --> 00:58:21,119
without without introducing metaphysical

1852
00:58:24,069 --> 00:58:22,000
principles

1853
00:58:25,510 --> 00:58:24,079
that's that's that's a kind of a yeah

1854
00:58:28,150 --> 00:58:25,520
that's just how it is so i

1855
00:58:29,990 --> 00:58:28,160
i yeah but see hoffman you don't maybe

1856
00:58:33,109 --> 00:58:30,000
you don't know hoffman's stuff because

1857
00:58:34,950 --> 00:58:33,119
a little bit well because he says

1858
00:58:36,390 --> 00:58:34,960
yeah and he says i can totally be wrong

1859
00:58:39,670 --> 00:58:36,400
but we have to try

1860
00:58:43,109 --> 00:58:39,680
we we have to try and use

1861
00:58:46,069 --> 00:58:43,119
mathematics is our most elegant profound

1862
00:58:46,710 --> 00:58:46,079
simplest most concise way of talking

1863
00:58:49,349 --> 00:58:46,720
about

1864
00:58:50,150 --> 00:58:49,359
what that link would be to the to the

1865
00:58:52,069 --> 00:58:50,160
metaphysical

1866
00:58:53,829 --> 00:58:52,079
we just can't chalk it up and say well

1867
00:58:54,789 --> 00:58:53,839
that's the great unknown we can never

1868
00:58:57,109 --> 00:58:54,799
penetrate it

1869
00:58:59,270 --> 00:58:57,119
if we are going to it's not the great

1870
00:59:01,910 --> 00:58:59,280
unknown but you cannot use

1871
00:59:03,670 --> 00:59:01,920
materialist tools like mathematics and

1872
00:59:05,510 --> 00:59:03,680
experimentation to get you to the

1873
00:59:07,270 --> 00:59:05,520
non-materialist side of reality

1874
00:59:09,109 --> 00:59:07,280
that that won't work it's just not going

1875
00:59:10,470 --> 00:59:09,119
to get you well we're going to we're

1876
00:59:13,430 --> 00:59:10,480
going to argue about stupid stuff let's

1877
00:59:16,630 --> 00:59:13,440
talk about the jesus oaks

1878
00:59:19,030 --> 00:59:16,640
no because because we're we're really

1879
00:59:20,309 --> 00:59:19,040
i think the big leap that we're talking

1880
00:59:22,069 --> 00:59:20,319
about is materialism and post

1881
00:59:24,630 --> 00:59:22,079
materialism it's over there

1882
00:59:25,670 --> 00:59:24,640
tell us about this book which i really

1883
00:59:27,109 --> 00:59:25,680
like in a lot of ways

1884
00:59:30,230 --> 00:59:27,119
but i'm probably going to push back on

1885
00:59:32,069 --> 00:59:30,240
you too the jesus hoax what's that about

1886
00:59:33,910 --> 00:59:32,079
why did you write the jesus hoax who are

1887
00:59:35,829 --> 00:59:33,920
you who wrote that to write the jesus

1888
00:59:37,430 --> 00:59:35,839
hoax

1889
00:59:39,109 --> 00:59:37,440
so we're clicking we're on channel three

1890
00:59:42,309 --> 00:59:39,119
now here this is

1891
00:59:43,910 --> 00:59:42,319
really jumping around yeah um okay right

1892
00:59:46,150 --> 00:59:43,920
so

1893
00:59:47,910 --> 00:59:46,160
again it goes kind of way back to my uh

1894
00:59:49,750 --> 00:59:47,920
middle school days when i used to have

1895
00:59:50,710 --> 00:59:49,760
debates with the religious kids in

1896
00:59:52,630 --> 00:59:50,720
school

1897
00:59:54,390 --> 00:59:52,640
i was the evolutionist and the scientist

1898
00:59:55,990 --> 00:59:54,400
guy and here were these nutty

1899
00:59:57,589 --> 00:59:56,000
biblical kids who were you know big in

1900
01:00:00,069 --> 00:59:57,599
the baptism

1901
01:00:01,349 --> 01:00:00,079
uh baptist church and whatever and you

1902
01:00:02,870 --> 01:00:01,359
know they're they're giving us these god

1903
01:00:04,390 --> 01:00:02,880
stories and i thought that's just crazy

1904
01:00:06,069 --> 01:00:04,400
right so

1905
01:00:07,990 --> 01:00:06,079
long a long time sort of going going

1906
01:00:09,430 --> 01:00:08,000
back as far as yeah

1907
01:00:11,829 --> 01:00:09,440
child childhood basically being a

1908
01:00:13,910 --> 01:00:11,839
religious skeptic um

1909
01:00:15,270 --> 01:00:13,920
so this is kind of kind of my was your

1910
01:00:16,789 --> 01:00:15,280
family what was your

1911
01:00:18,470 --> 01:00:16,799
did you have any religious upbringing or

1912
01:00:20,710 --> 01:00:18,480
were your parents really well

1913
01:00:21,750 --> 01:00:20,720
yeah when i was very young so we were

1914
01:00:25,349 --> 01:00:21,760
presbyterians

1915
01:00:27,109 --> 01:00:25,359
nominally uh i recall going to a sunday

1916
01:00:28,549 --> 01:00:27,119
school you know once a week my mom would

1917
01:00:29,589 --> 01:00:28,559
take me dad stayed home and worked

1918
01:00:31,190 --> 01:00:29,599
around the house and

1919
01:00:33,109 --> 01:00:31,200
you know mom would take me i would sit

1920
01:00:34,150 --> 01:00:33,119
in sunday school and you know bs with a

1921
01:00:35,750 --> 01:00:34,160
kid next to me and

1922
01:00:37,990 --> 01:00:35,760
uh you know i don't know if you know

1923
01:00:40,390 --> 01:00:38,000
presbyterianism but it's really

1924
01:00:41,589 --> 01:00:40,400
watered down theology is really

1925
01:00:42,950 --> 01:00:41,599
minimalist and

1926
01:00:44,230 --> 01:00:42,960
and to me i just kind of sat there and

1927
01:00:45,109 --> 01:00:44,240
just kind of nodded my head and just

1928
01:00:48,950 --> 01:00:45,119
didn't really

1929
01:00:49,910 --> 01:00:48,960
was predisposed i was never really

1930
01:00:51,430 --> 01:00:49,920
raised religious

1931
01:00:53,910 --> 01:00:51,440
i was raised i guess i would say

1932
01:00:55,670 --> 01:00:53,920
open-mindedly not one way or the other

1933
01:00:57,109 --> 01:00:55,680
uh but just sort of inclined to be

1934
01:01:00,309 --> 01:00:57,119
skeptical about things like

1935
01:01:00,630 --> 01:01:00,319
like i am about most things um and so i

1936
01:01:02,390 --> 01:01:00,640
met

1937
01:01:03,990 --> 01:01:02,400
i mean any okay so you get to the bible

1938
01:01:05,910 --> 01:01:04,000
you're reading miracle stories and son

1939
01:01:07,510 --> 01:01:05,920
of god and resurrections and all these

1940
01:01:09,190 --> 01:01:07,520
kind of heaven and hell so

1941
01:01:10,870 --> 01:01:09,200
okay any rational person has to be

1942
01:01:12,150 --> 01:01:10,880
skeptical from the start about these

1943
01:01:13,750 --> 01:01:12,160
things

1944
01:01:15,430 --> 01:01:13,760
and then and then you sort of you sort

1945
01:01:16,549 --> 01:01:15,440
of dig into it you say well what's the

1946
01:01:19,829 --> 01:01:16,559
actual

1947
01:01:23,109 --> 01:01:19,839
you have the new testament which is the

1948
01:01:25,190 --> 01:01:23,119
whole story of christianity

1949
01:01:26,630 --> 01:01:25,200
and and you start to sort of you know

1950
01:01:29,190 --> 01:01:26,640
wonder what's going on there

1951
01:01:29,670 --> 01:01:29,200
um you know these guys are talking like

1952
01:01:32,309 --> 01:01:29,680
they know

1953
01:01:34,630 --> 01:01:32,319
things and and they're sounding very

1954
01:01:36,390 --> 01:01:34,640
convinced and very compelling and

1955
01:01:37,829 --> 01:01:36,400
so who are these guys you know what were

1956
01:01:38,789 --> 01:01:37,839
they thinking what were they writing

1957
01:01:40,870 --> 01:01:38,799
this is kind of the

1958
01:01:42,230 --> 01:01:40,880
interesting context right at what point

1959
01:01:45,190 --> 01:01:42,240
were you getting serious

1960
01:01:45,589 --> 01:01:45,200
about investigating this as a scholar

1961
01:01:47,430 --> 01:01:45,599
yeah

1962
01:01:49,349 --> 01:01:47,440
right well i guess when that when i

1963
01:01:51,030 --> 01:01:49,359
started digging into the data right so i

1964
01:01:53,109 --> 01:01:51,040
started coming up with

1965
01:01:55,270 --> 01:01:53,119
let's say the time the timelines right

1966
01:01:56,230 --> 01:01:55,280
scholars for a number of decades and it

1967
01:01:59,109 --> 01:01:56,240
took me a while to

1968
01:02:00,230 --> 01:01:59,119
sort of really understand this scholars

1969
01:02:02,789 --> 01:02:00,240
anthropologists

1970
01:02:03,270 --> 01:02:02,799
basically and literary experts have made

1971
01:02:07,349 --> 01:02:03,280
good

1972
01:02:08,549 --> 01:02:07,359
new testament so you basically have the

1973
01:02:10,230 --> 01:02:08,559
letters of paul

1974
01:02:12,150 --> 01:02:10,240
and the four gospels and some other

1975
01:02:13,670 --> 01:02:12,160
extraneous pieces and they've been able

1976
01:02:16,630 --> 01:02:13,680
to date these things

1977
01:02:17,510 --> 01:02:16,640
fairly fairly well and they've also

1978
01:02:20,390 --> 01:02:17,520
looked for other

1979
01:02:21,750 --> 01:02:20,400
confirming data about the jesus story

1980
01:02:23,109 --> 01:02:21,760
and early the early years of

1981
01:02:25,349 --> 01:02:23,119
christianity

1982
01:02:27,589 --> 01:02:25,359
just so we can be clear you're referring

1983
01:02:28,470 --> 01:02:27,599
to the probable time when they were

1984
01:02:29,990 --> 01:02:28,480
first

1985
01:02:31,990 --> 01:02:30,000
written because then we have the whole

1986
01:02:34,789 --> 01:02:32,000
other dating issue regarding the

1987
01:02:35,430 --> 01:02:34,799
manuscripts right exactly right so we

1988
01:02:38,950 --> 01:02:35,440
don't have

1989
01:02:40,870 --> 01:02:38,960
have copies of copies of copies

1990
01:02:42,230 --> 01:02:40,880
but we can work backwards and we can say

1991
01:02:43,990 --> 01:02:42,240
look there was probably an original

1992
01:02:46,789 --> 01:02:44,000
manuscript written in a certain time

1993
01:02:48,630 --> 01:02:46,799
frame so this is exactly right and so so

1994
01:02:51,589 --> 01:02:48,640
for example we've dated the letters of

1995
01:02:52,069 --> 01:02:51,599
paul so he wrote nominally 13 letters

1996
01:02:53,670 --> 01:02:52,079
although

1997
01:02:55,270 --> 01:02:53,680
half of those are considered forgeries

1998
01:02:56,309 --> 01:02:55,280
so he's actually written six or seven

1999
01:02:58,710 --> 01:02:56,319
that are legitimate

2000
01:02:59,829 --> 01:02:58,720
we can date those between the year 50

2001
01:03:02,150 --> 01:02:59,839
and 70

2002
01:03:03,109 --> 01:03:02,160
a.d and i think scott is a pretty strong

2003
01:03:04,549 --> 01:03:03,119
consensus that

2004
01:03:06,069 --> 01:03:04,559
that's when those letters that's when

2005
01:03:06,630 --> 01:03:06,079
paul lived that's when he wrote those

2006
01:03:09,349 --> 01:03:06,640
letters

2007
01:03:09,670 --> 01:03:09,359
he died sometime before the year 70. so

2008
01:03:11,109 --> 01:03:09,680
yeah

2009
01:03:12,630 --> 01:03:11,119
okay that makes sense that's when he

2010
01:03:13,750 --> 01:03:12,640
wrote the letters sort of the first

2011
01:03:15,910 --> 01:03:13,760
striking fact to me was

2012
01:03:17,670 --> 01:03:15,920
was the gospels and if you look in the

2013
01:03:19,910 --> 01:03:17,680
letters all the letters of paul

2014
01:03:20,950 --> 01:03:19,920
he does not mention anything about the

2015
01:03:22,710 --> 01:03:20,960
gospels

2016
01:03:24,390 --> 01:03:22,720
he doesn't talk anything about jesus

2017
01:03:25,750 --> 01:03:24,400
birth he doesn't tell you anything that

2018
01:03:27,349 --> 01:03:25,760
jesus said

2019
01:03:29,510 --> 01:03:27,359
it's almost like he doesn't realize that

2020
01:03:31,750 --> 01:03:29,520
there were any gospels at all

2021
01:03:33,510 --> 01:03:31,760
and in fact there weren't because the

2022
01:03:36,150 --> 01:03:33,520
gospels were not written until

2023
01:03:37,029 --> 01:03:36,160
after paul dies and this was sort of one

2024
01:03:38,630 --> 01:03:37,039
of the first

2025
01:03:40,230 --> 01:03:38,640
really enlightening facts for me and you

2026
01:03:41,190 --> 01:03:40,240
say well look when did the when were the

2027
01:03:42,710 --> 01:03:41,200
gospels written

2028
01:03:44,150 --> 01:03:42,720
well the experts say well look the first

2029
01:03:45,430 --> 01:03:44,160
gospel was mark and that was written

2030
01:03:47,029 --> 01:03:45,440
around the year 70

2031
01:03:49,109 --> 01:03:47,039
shortly after the romans defeated the

2032
01:03:51,589 --> 01:03:49,119
jews in the first revolution

2033
01:03:53,430 --> 01:03:51,599
in the year in the year 70. the the next

2034
01:03:54,630 --> 01:03:53,440
two gospels matthew and luke were

2035
01:03:57,190 --> 01:03:54,640
written in the mid-80s

2036
01:03:58,470 --> 01:03:57,200
a.d the fourth gospel john was written

2037
01:04:02,230 --> 01:03:58,480
in the mid 90s

2038
01:04:04,069 --> 01:04:02,240
a.d these tell the story of jesus

2039
01:04:05,750 --> 01:04:04,079
not the letters of paul and nothing

2040
01:04:07,190 --> 01:04:05,760
before the letters of paul

2041
01:04:08,710 --> 01:04:07,200
and and then you start to put the whole

2042
01:04:09,829 --> 01:04:08,720
first century into perspective and you

2043
01:04:11,349 --> 01:04:09,839
say well wait a minute

2044
01:04:13,349 --> 01:04:11,359
something's crazy here right because you

2045
01:04:14,549 --> 01:04:13,359
got the life of jesus jesus lived not

2046
01:04:18,549 --> 01:04:14,559
only from zero to

2047
01:04:20,069 --> 01:04:18,559
30 a.d it's the last three years when he

2048
01:04:21,349 --> 01:04:20,079
performed his ministry and he did all

2049
01:04:23,430 --> 01:04:21,359
the miracles there's

2050
01:04:25,029 --> 01:04:23,440
documents in the bible of something like

2051
01:04:27,029 --> 01:04:25,039
36 miracles

2052
01:04:28,549 --> 01:04:27,039
uh he's walking on water and raising the

2053
01:04:29,910 --> 01:04:28,559
dead and calming the storm and the

2054
01:04:32,789 --> 01:04:29,920
fishes and the loaves and all these

2055
01:04:33,910 --> 01:04:32,799
all these miracle stories and you say

2056
01:04:35,430 --> 01:04:33,920
well look where's the where's the

2057
01:04:37,430 --> 01:04:35,440
contemporaneous evidence where's the

2058
01:04:39,589 --> 01:04:37,440
evidence from anybody who lived

2059
01:04:41,589 --> 01:04:39,599
at the time of jesus at the time of his

2060
01:04:43,750 --> 01:04:41,599
ministry within a few years after

2061
01:04:45,670 --> 01:04:43,760
where's the evidence that people saw

2062
01:04:47,029 --> 01:04:45,680
these miracles for example

2063
01:04:48,710 --> 01:04:47,039
some of the miracles were in front of a

2064
01:04:51,029 --> 01:04:48,720
few people some were in front of

2065
01:04:52,150 --> 01:04:51,039
thousands of people and if you were

2066
01:04:52,470 --> 01:04:52,160
there and you witnessed a miracle

2067
01:04:54,870 --> 01:04:52,480
there's

2068
01:04:55,670 --> 01:04:54,880
thousands of people probably hundreds of

2069
01:04:57,270 --> 01:04:55,680
those people

2070
01:04:58,789 --> 01:04:57,280
are gonna do something about it they'll

2071
01:05:00,710 --> 01:04:58,799
write it down they'll tell somebody who

2072
01:05:01,589 --> 01:05:00,720
wrote it down they'll report it i don't

2073
01:05:02,950 --> 01:05:01,599
know whatever right

2074
01:05:04,549 --> 01:05:02,960
some kind of documentation it's

2075
01:05:06,470 --> 01:05:04,559
impressive thing right i mean you're

2076
01:05:07,990 --> 01:05:06,480
talking a real miracle here right

2077
01:05:09,589 --> 01:05:08,000
and instead you look at you look at what

2078
01:05:10,069 --> 01:05:09,599
happened and and you look and you find

2079
01:05:16,549 --> 01:05:10,079
nothing

2080
01:05:17,589 --> 01:05:16,559
from the three years of his ministry for

2081
01:05:20,630 --> 01:05:17,599
two decades

2082
01:05:22,549 --> 01:05:20,640
after the crucifixion nothing zilch zero

2083
01:05:24,789 --> 01:05:22,559
not a shred of evidence not a letter

2084
01:05:25,910 --> 01:05:24,799
not a document not a carving no relics

2085
01:05:28,230 --> 01:05:25,920
nothing

2086
01:05:28,950 --> 01:05:28,240
zero and so wait a minute how is that

2087
01:05:30,549 --> 01:05:28,960
possible

2088
01:05:32,870 --> 01:05:30,559
and then suddenly the letters of paul

2089
01:05:35,349 --> 01:05:32,880
show up this is starting in the year 50

2090
01:05:35,990 --> 01:05:35,359
that's 20 years after the resurrection

2091
01:05:37,430 --> 01:05:36,000
and he's telling

2092
01:05:38,870 --> 01:05:37,440
things about how jesus rose from the

2093
01:05:40,870 --> 01:05:38,880
dead it's like well yeah sure right how

2094
01:05:42,710 --> 01:05:40,880
do you know that was 20 years ago

2095
01:05:44,390 --> 01:05:42,720
and then decades after that you get the

2096
01:05:46,309 --> 01:05:44,400
miracle stories and you get the raisings

2097
01:05:47,990 --> 01:05:46,319
from the dead and then jesus

2098
01:05:49,430 --> 01:05:48,000
sermon on the mountain all this stuff

2099
01:05:52,950 --> 01:05:49,440
shows up 40

2100
01:05:53,510 --> 01:05:52,960
50 60 70 years later you say wait a

2101
01:05:55,510 --> 01:05:53,520
minute

2102
01:05:57,349 --> 01:05:55,520
what's going on how could that happen

2103
01:05:59,829 --> 01:05:57,359
how could the people decades later

2104
01:06:00,390 --> 01:05:59,839
know precisely what happened decades

2105
01:06:02,470 --> 01:06:00,400
earlier

2106
01:06:04,390 --> 01:06:02,480
when people at the time said nothing

2107
01:06:06,230 --> 01:06:04,400
about the story

2108
01:06:07,829 --> 01:06:06,240
so immediately you know then the warning

2109
01:06:09,670 --> 01:06:07,839
bells go off he's like something's fishy

2110
01:06:11,430 --> 01:06:09,680
this just doesn't make sense

2111
01:06:12,789 --> 01:06:11,440
what's going on and then you think about

2112
01:06:14,390 --> 01:06:12,799
well who was doing this

2113
01:06:16,069 --> 01:06:14,400
well who are these guys well we know

2114
01:06:16,789 --> 01:06:16,079
they were all jews right so paul was a

2115
01:06:20,710 --> 01:06:16,799
jew

2116
01:06:21,990 --> 01:06:20,720
and we think the four gospel writers

2117
01:06:23,910 --> 01:06:22,000
whoever they were we don't really know

2118
01:06:26,549 --> 01:06:23,920
we think they were all jews as well they

2119
01:06:28,309 --> 01:06:26,559
were enmeshed in a battle with rome

2120
01:06:30,150 --> 01:06:28,319
i mean this is sort of indisputable the

2121
01:06:33,430 --> 01:06:30,160
romans came into palestine

2122
01:06:34,549 --> 01:06:33,440
in 63 bc throughout the jewish tribes

2123
01:06:36,549 --> 01:06:34,559
who were the jewish

2124
01:06:37,829 --> 01:06:36,559
rulers who were running the show threw

2125
01:06:40,630 --> 01:06:37,839
them out right

2126
01:06:41,670 --> 01:06:40,640
took over and ran ran palestine for what

2127
01:06:44,870 --> 01:06:41,680
would end up being like

2128
01:06:46,470 --> 01:06:44,880
400 years and the and the jews would

2129
01:06:47,750 --> 01:06:46,480
have been mad as hell i mean anybody

2130
01:06:49,190 --> 01:06:47,760
would have been right some foreigner

2131
01:06:51,270 --> 01:06:49,200
comes in throws you out of power and

2132
01:06:53,190 --> 01:06:51,280
takes over and says now we're in charge

2133
01:06:55,990 --> 01:06:53,200
so you have a whole jewish milieu in

2134
01:06:57,670 --> 01:06:56,000
which they're mad as hell at the romans

2135
01:06:59,430 --> 01:06:57,680
they want to get rid of them they don't

2136
01:07:00,950 --> 01:06:59,440
really like the pagans

2137
01:07:02,549 --> 01:07:00,960
around them because there's always this

2138
01:07:05,670 --> 01:07:02,559
antipathy between the jews and

2139
01:07:07,029 --> 01:07:05,680
the non-jewish masses around them

2140
01:07:09,029 --> 01:07:07,039
and you say well look let's put two and

2141
01:07:10,069 --> 01:07:09,039
two together here you got a group of

2142
01:07:12,390 --> 01:07:10,079
elite jews

2143
01:07:13,589 --> 01:07:12,400
who are giving us a clearly nonsense

2144
01:07:15,430 --> 01:07:13,599
story

2145
01:07:17,190 --> 01:07:15,440
about miracle man and a guy who came

2146
01:07:18,150 --> 01:07:17,200
he's son of god he's raising people from

2147
01:07:20,069 --> 01:07:18,160
the dead

2148
01:07:21,270 --> 01:07:20,079
why are they doing this well you know

2149
01:07:21,670 --> 01:07:21,280
there's a good chance that they're doing

2150
01:07:24,150 --> 01:07:21,680
it to

2151
01:07:25,349 --> 01:07:24,160
to create a story a mythology and a

2152
01:07:27,349 --> 01:07:25,359
world view

2153
01:07:28,390 --> 01:07:27,359
that's gonna sort of draw people to

2154
01:07:30,470 --> 01:07:28,400
their side

2155
01:07:32,150 --> 01:07:30,480
away from the roman side the roman

2156
01:07:33,589 --> 01:07:32,160
pantheon we're familiar roughly with

2157
01:07:35,190 --> 01:07:33,599
that mythology

2158
01:07:36,870 --> 01:07:35,200
we're going to create a worldview that's

2159
01:07:39,589 --> 01:07:36,880
going to draw people away from that

2160
01:07:40,710 --> 01:07:39,599
more to our side and therefore undermine

2161
01:07:43,829 --> 01:07:40,720
the power of rome

2162
01:07:46,630 --> 01:07:43,839
in our region and so this is sort of the

2163
01:07:47,670 --> 01:07:46,640
the essence of this jesus hoax story we

2164
01:07:50,069 --> 01:07:47,680
took a guy

2165
01:07:52,309 --> 01:07:50,079
who either did not exist or if he did he

2166
01:07:52,950 --> 01:07:52,319
was just a regular guy a mortal human

2167
01:07:55,349 --> 01:07:52,960
being

2168
01:07:56,950 --> 01:07:55,359
maybe he was a rabble rouser maybe he

2169
01:07:59,510 --> 01:07:56,960
spoke out against the poor

2170
01:08:00,710 --> 01:07:59,520
maybe he got him got himself crucified

2171
01:08:01,829 --> 01:08:00,720
that's a fair chance that that actually

2172
01:08:03,109 --> 01:08:01,839
happened i don't doubt that there was a

2173
01:08:04,630 --> 01:08:03,119
crucifixion there could well have been

2174
01:08:05,990 --> 01:08:04,640
an actual crucifixion

2175
01:08:08,150 --> 01:08:06,000
but like everybody else he would have

2176
01:08:09,589 --> 01:08:08,160
been died taken down and buried in some

2177
01:08:10,390 --> 01:08:09,599
unknown tomb and we'll never know where

2178
01:08:12,870 --> 01:08:10,400
he's at

2179
01:08:14,789 --> 01:08:12,880
and then decades later somebody gins up

2180
01:08:15,910 --> 01:08:14,799
a story about this guy who got killed

2181
01:08:17,669 --> 01:08:15,920
this jewish rabbi

2182
01:08:19,189 --> 01:08:17,679
who got killed and we turn him into the

2183
01:08:19,669 --> 01:08:19,199
son of god the miracle man and then we

2184
01:08:24,470 --> 01:08:19,679
start

2185
01:08:25,030 --> 01:08:24,480
to the gentile masses the non-jewish

2186
01:08:26,709 --> 01:08:25,040
masses

2187
01:08:28,950 --> 01:08:26,719
this is what paul did he's the

2188
01:08:31,189 --> 01:08:28,960
self-proclaimed apostle to the gentiles

2189
01:08:32,630 --> 01:08:31,199
he's taken his story to the masses the

2190
01:08:35,030 --> 01:08:32,640
non-jewish masses

2191
01:08:35,829 --> 01:08:35,040
to get them on on his side get them away

2192
01:08:37,910 --> 01:08:35,839
from rome

2193
01:08:39,430 --> 01:08:37,920
to me that's that's the story that makes

2194
01:08:41,510 --> 01:08:39,440
the most sense

2195
01:08:43,349 --> 01:08:41,520
okay i like part of the story not all

2196
01:08:44,470 --> 01:08:43,359
the story i don't know how anyone

2197
01:08:48,070 --> 01:08:44,480
contradicts

2198
01:08:49,430 --> 01:08:48,080
your read of the state of modern

2199
01:08:52,870 --> 01:08:49,440
biblical slash

2200
01:08:55,269 --> 01:08:52,880
religious scholarship it is abysmal

2201
01:08:57,349 --> 01:08:55,279
for anyone who comes in from the outside

2202
01:08:59,189 --> 01:08:57,359
a science guy a business guy like me

2203
01:09:00,709 --> 01:08:59,199
you start reading what these people are

2204
01:09:03,430 --> 01:09:00,719
writing and you're like

2205
01:09:06,550 --> 01:09:03,440
who's minding the store in terms of

2206
01:09:08,390 --> 01:09:06,560
publishing this stuff it's just so silly

2207
01:09:10,870 --> 01:09:08,400
and you're the first person i've heard

2208
01:09:12,950 --> 01:09:10,880
that is willing to go there with the

2209
01:09:15,749 --> 01:09:12,960
jesus business

2210
01:09:17,269 --> 01:09:15,759
as it relates to academia i mean i guess

2211
01:09:18,789 --> 01:09:17,279
we all know that but

2212
01:09:21,030 --> 01:09:18,799
you're at least willing to kind of put

2213
01:09:23,669 --> 01:09:21,040
it out there i mean talk about

2214
01:09:24,630 --> 01:09:23,679
a scholarship and talk about the the

2215
01:09:27,189 --> 01:09:24,640
standard that

2216
01:09:28,709 --> 01:09:27,199
is kind of non-existent in terms of the

2217
01:09:31,910 --> 01:09:28,719
craziness that gets published

2218
01:09:33,910 --> 01:09:31,920
and then talk about the jesus business

2219
01:09:35,269 --> 01:09:33,920
well right so i mean if you look at i

2220
01:09:36,309 --> 01:09:35,279
mean who's doing academic work on

2221
01:09:38,390 --> 01:09:36,319
christianity

2222
01:09:39,430 --> 01:09:38,400
so the first in the first case they're

2223
01:09:40,870 --> 01:09:39,440
mostly christians

2224
01:09:42,309 --> 01:09:40,880
i mean this makes sense right i mean

2225
01:09:43,990 --> 01:09:42,319
you're going to have you have christian

2226
01:09:45,189 --> 01:09:44,000
schools christian universities christian

2227
01:09:47,189 --> 01:09:45,199
colleges and christian

2228
01:09:48,630 --> 01:09:47,199
professors and they're going to be most

2229
01:09:49,829 --> 01:09:48,640
interested in the story

2230
01:09:51,510 --> 01:09:49,839
they're going to do the research and the

2231
01:09:52,950 --> 01:09:51,520
publication and write the books but of

2232
01:09:54,070 --> 01:09:52,960
course they're christians so they're

2233
01:09:55,110 --> 01:09:54,080
believing the story

2234
01:09:56,790 --> 01:09:55,120
they're following they're buying the

2235
01:09:57,990 --> 01:09:56,800
basic line they're basically believing

2236
01:09:59,030 --> 01:09:58,000
the bible and they're quibbling about

2237
01:10:00,070 --> 01:09:59,040
the details and they're trying to

2238
01:10:03,750 --> 01:10:00,080
explain it as an

2239
01:10:04,870 --> 01:10:03,760
academic there there is completely no

2240
01:10:07,590 --> 01:10:04,880
even pretense

2241
01:10:08,550 --> 01:10:07,600
of lack of bias they're completely

2242
01:10:11,750 --> 01:10:08,560
biased

2243
01:10:13,590 --> 01:10:11,760
right so it just you wouldn't go into

2244
01:10:14,950 --> 01:10:13,600
you wouldn't go into another department

2245
01:10:17,189 --> 01:10:14,960
at the university

2246
01:10:18,790 --> 01:10:17,199
and and have apologists like that

2247
01:10:20,470 --> 01:10:18,800
writing that kind of dribble you just

2248
01:10:22,229 --> 01:10:20,480
wouldn't see it would you

2249
01:10:23,669 --> 01:10:22,239
no of course not right but of course if

2250
01:10:25,110 --> 01:10:23,679
you're in a religious

2251
01:10:26,070 --> 01:10:25,120
college or university it's taken for

2252
01:10:27,030 --> 01:10:26,080
granted yeah of course we're all

2253
01:10:28,390 --> 01:10:27,040
christians here or

2254
01:10:30,390 --> 01:10:28,400
you know catholic school yeah of course

2255
01:10:31,990 --> 01:10:30,400
we all believe that stuff so

2256
01:10:34,470 --> 01:10:32,000
in many contexts you don't even get any

2257
01:10:36,709 --> 01:10:34,480
pushback you know in a secular whatever

2258
01:10:38,470 --> 01:10:36,719
normal public public university you

2259
01:10:39,270 --> 01:10:38,480
should be getting pushback but you don't

2260
01:10:42,870 --> 01:10:39,280
you get

2261
01:10:44,870 --> 01:10:42,880
christian stuff so so

2262
01:10:46,229 --> 01:10:44,880
so to me you almost have to i mean all

2263
01:10:46,550 --> 01:10:46,239
these guys i mean they make good points

2264
01:10:48,550 --> 01:10:46,560
and

2265
01:10:50,630 --> 01:10:48,560
they do good good solid research but

2266
01:10:51,910 --> 01:10:50,640
their basic worldview is not going to be

2267
01:10:53,510 --> 01:10:51,920
skeptical towards

2268
01:10:55,590 --> 01:10:53,520
the basics of the fact because they're

2269
01:10:56,709 --> 01:10:55,600
biased so you have to put put that all

2270
01:10:58,149 --> 01:10:56,719
into a shelf

2271
01:11:00,070 --> 01:10:58,159
and say okay here's some interesting

2272
01:11:01,590 --> 01:11:00,080
factual data but they're not going to

2273
01:11:02,790 --> 01:11:01,600
challenge the basis of the story just

2274
01:11:04,950 --> 01:11:02,800
because they're christians

2275
01:11:06,870 --> 01:11:04,960
and so you're setting aside i don't know

2276
01:11:08,790 --> 01:11:06,880
90 or 95

2277
01:11:11,110 --> 01:11:08,800
of all the academic materials written on

2278
01:11:12,390 --> 01:11:11,120
christians is by biased individuals

2279
01:11:13,950 --> 01:11:12,400
so you've got to look for the small

2280
01:11:15,270 --> 01:11:13,960
percentage of people who are

2281
01:11:17,030 --> 01:11:15,280
anthropologists

2282
01:11:19,430 --> 01:11:17,040
or maybe scientists or maybe they're

2283
01:11:21,350 --> 01:11:19,440
jews or muslims who aren't buying

2284
01:11:23,030 --> 01:11:21,360
the christian story and at least you

2285
01:11:24,709 --> 01:11:23,040
have a hope there that they're going to

2286
01:11:27,270 --> 01:11:24,719
think critically about the basis of the

2287
01:11:28,870 --> 01:11:27,280
story right in my case i'm basically a

2288
01:11:29,990 --> 01:11:28,880
non-religious person i don't subscribe

2289
01:11:32,390 --> 01:11:30,000
to any religion

2290
01:11:33,510 --> 01:11:32,400
uh i try to be a rationalist i i try to

2291
01:11:34,950 --> 01:11:33,520
you know be

2292
01:11:36,550 --> 01:11:34,960
like i say i have a technical background

2293
01:11:38,550 --> 01:11:36,560
i have degree in mathematics

2294
01:11:40,550 --> 01:11:38,560
so i try to be sort of logical and

2295
01:11:41,830 --> 01:11:40,560
analytical about these things and uh

2296
01:11:43,430 --> 01:11:41,840
you know i'm trying to be open to all

2297
01:11:44,390 --> 01:11:43,440
solutions but when you look at it sort

2298
01:11:45,990 --> 01:11:44,400
of objectively

2299
01:11:48,550 --> 01:11:46,000
you you see this as a boatload of

2300
01:11:50,390 --> 01:11:48,560
nonsense and something else was going on

2301
01:11:52,070 --> 01:11:50,400
and you have to have the courage to sort

2302
01:11:53,750 --> 01:11:52,080
of get to the bottom of it and try to

2303
01:11:55,669 --> 01:11:53,760
give a real story about what what

2304
01:11:57,189 --> 01:11:55,679
most likely happened let me just

2305
01:11:59,270 --> 01:11:57,199
interject because uh people might want

2306
01:11:59,990 --> 01:11:59,280
to check out a debate that i saw you too

2307
01:12:02,310 --> 01:12:00,000
with a guy from

2308
01:12:04,229 --> 01:12:02,320
wayne state university there in michigan

2309
01:12:04,950 --> 01:12:04,239
and a nice enough guy really seemed like

2310
01:12:14,390 --> 01:12:04,960
a

2311
01:12:15,189 --> 01:12:14,400
don't kind of suffer fools mildly kind

2312
01:12:17,990 --> 01:12:15,199
of thing

2313
01:12:19,830 --> 01:12:18,000
and the guy gave this thing and i could

2314
01:12:21,669 --> 01:12:19,840
see you were kind of trying to pick

2315
01:12:23,990 --> 01:12:21,679
words you know and saying but you

2316
01:12:27,270 --> 01:12:24,000
ultimately said do you believe

2317
01:12:29,430 --> 01:12:27,280
everything you read and that that's

2318
01:12:31,350 --> 01:12:29,440
it's so captured so many times what i

2319
01:12:32,470 --> 01:12:31,360
want to scream at some of these books

2320
01:12:34,790 --> 01:12:32,480
that i read it's like

2321
01:12:36,950 --> 01:12:34,800
why are you just accepting everything

2322
01:12:37,669 --> 01:12:36,960
that's just being presented to you just

2323
01:12:40,070 --> 01:12:37,679
to

2324
01:12:41,270 --> 01:12:40,080
suck it all in and just take it all it

2325
01:12:43,430 --> 01:12:41,280
just we wouldn't

2326
01:12:45,510 --> 01:12:43,440
expect a normal intelligent person to do

2327
01:12:46,630 --> 01:12:45,520
that but well exactly right i mean

2328
01:12:47,990 --> 01:12:46,640
i mean there's interesting arguments

2329
01:12:48,950 --> 01:12:48,000
goes back to well why do people believe

2330
01:12:50,310 --> 01:12:48,960
in god you know

2331
01:12:52,630 --> 01:12:50,320
where do they come to this belief in

2332
01:12:53,270 --> 01:12:52,640
christianity and you know there's an old

2333
01:12:55,270 --> 01:12:53,280
story about

2334
01:12:56,630 --> 01:12:55,280
bertrand russell he's he's looking at

2335
01:12:57,350 --> 01:12:56,640
arguments for the existence of god and

2336
01:12:59,590 --> 01:12:57,360
he says well look

2337
01:13:01,030 --> 01:12:59,600
you know most people don't believe in

2338
01:13:02,070 --> 01:13:01,040
god or jesus because of rational

2339
01:13:03,350 --> 01:13:02,080
arguments they believe it because they

2340
01:13:04,550 --> 01:13:03,360
were told by their mother when they were

2341
01:13:06,310 --> 01:13:04,560
five years old

2342
01:13:07,750 --> 01:13:06,320
and okay so everybody believes mom and

2343
01:13:09,189 --> 01:13:07,760
you're raised in this environment and

2344
01:13:10,149 --> 01:13:09,199
this is sort of your mindset as you're

2345
01:13:11,430 --> 01:13:10,159
being raised

2346
01:13:13,430 --> 01:13:11,440
and that's why people believe and then

2347
01:13:15,350 --> 01:13:13,440
they try to reconcile what they learn

2348
01:13:16,709 --> 01:13:15,360
with what they believed all along from

2349
01:13:18,310 --> 01:13:16,719
their earliest years

2350
01:13:20,630 --> 01:13:18,320
that's not a rational viewpoint this is

2351
01:13:22,229 --> 01:13:20,640
what i you know i i understand it

2352
01:13:23,590 --> 01:13:22,239
but it's not a rational thing to say i'm

2353
01:13:24,950 --> 01:13:23,600
going to believe this stuff basically

2354
01:13:25,510 --> 01:13:24,960
because mom told me when i was five

2355
01:13:27,590 --> 01:13:25,520
years old

2356
01:13:29,189 --> 01:13:27,600
i i'm sorry that just doesn't fly right

2357
01:13:30,229 --> 01:13:29,199
so so you've got to take a different

2358
01:13:32,070 --> 01:13:30,239
approach to it

2359
01:13:33,750 --> 01:13:32,080
otherwise we're just in some kind of

2360
01:13:35,110 --> 01:13:33,760
arbitrary fantasyland whatever somebody

2361
01:13:35,990 --> 01:13:35,120
told me when i was little i just take it

2362
01:13:38,310 --> 01:13:36,000
as true i mean that's

2363
01:13:39,590 --> 01:13:38,320
that's nonsense you know the other thing

2364
01:13:41,350 --> 01:13:39,600
and not to pile on this

2365
01:13:43,030 --> 01:13:41,360
this one point because i'm certainly not

2366
01:13:43,750 --> 01:13:43,040
an atheist i'm not christian i'm not

2367
01:13:45,110 --> 01:13:43,760
religious

2368
01:13:47,189 --> 01:13:45,120
but i'm definitely not an atheist

2369
01:13:48,550 --> 01:13:47,199
because i don't think the data

2370
01:13:50,310 --> 01:13:48,560
falls that way particularly when you

2371
01:13:50,790 --> 01:13:50,320
look at extended consciousness and we

2372
01:13:52,229 --> 01:13:50,800
can talk

2373
01:13:53,910 --> 01:13:52,239
we will talk about that later because i

2374
01:13:56,149 --> 01:13:53,920
think it plays into the jesus

2375
01:13:56,950 --> 01:13:56,159
hoax story but you know even people like

2376
01:13:59,270 --> 01:13:56,960
bart ehrman

2377
01:14:01,270 --> 01:13:59,280
who gets a way way too much air time and

2378
01:14:02,470 --> 01:14:01,280
i don't know why the christians propped

2379
01:14:05,510 --> 01:14:02,480
this guy up when

2380
01:14:08,229 --> 01:14:05,520
his jesus is such a puny little

2381
01:14:08,709 --> 01:14:08,239
you know guy who just random guy who

2382
01:14:11,189 --> 01:14:08,719
kind of

2383
01:14:12,790 --> 01:14:11,199
one of many messiahs who talked against

2384
01:14:14,070 --> 01:14:12,800
the yeah i don't know why that gets

2385
01:14:16,709 --> 01:14:14,080
propped up but it does

2386
01:14:17,110 --> 01:14:16,719
but i i wa i can't resist bringing this

2387
01:14:20,630 --> 01:14:17,120
up

2388
01:14:23,990 --> 01:14:20,640
the criterion of embarrassment

2389
01:14:26,790 --> 01:14:24,000
which is one of the uh analytical

2390
01:14:28,229 --> 01:14:26,800
textual techniques that bible critics

2391
01:14:30,470 --> 01:14:28,239
like bart ehrman does

2392
01:14:32,630 --> 01:14:30,480
it's the the criterion of embarrassment

2393
01:14:35,110 --> 01:14:32,640
the account is likely to be true

2394
01:14:36,390 --> 01:14:35,120
as the author would have no reason to

2395
01:14:39,110 --> 01:14:36,400
invent an account

2396
01:14:40,229 --> 01:14:39,120
which might embarrass them that this

2397
01:14:43,830 --> 01:14:40,239
passes

2398
01:14:46,149 --> 01:14:43,840
some kind of bar where people go oh okay

2399
01:14:47,189 --> 01:14:46,159
we understand of course all the motives

2400
01:14:49,669 --> 01:14:47,199
of all the people

2401
01:14:50,709 --> 01:14:49,679
we understand propaganda we understand

2402
01:14:52,630 --> 01:14:50,719
social engineering

2403
01:14:54,709 --> 01:14:52,640
and none of that could have possibly

2404
01:14:56,149 --> 01:14:54,719
been in play we just have to accept it

2405
01:14:57,510 --> 01:14:56,159
at face value i mean

2406
01:14:59,189 --> 01:14:57,520
this is the kind of stuff and this is

2407
01:14:59,910 --> 01:14:59,199
bart airman this he does this stuff all

2408
01:15:01,110 --> 01:14:59,920
the time

2409
01:15:03,350 --> 01:15:01,120
the other thing you said about bart

2410
01:15:05,270 --> 01:15:03,360
airman which i thought was brilliant

2411
01:15:06,470 --> 01:15:05,280
you know bart airman your quote bart

2412
01:15:09,910 --> 01:15:06,480
airman only looks

2413
01:15:12,870 --> 01:15:09,920
at why we know their forgeries not why

2414
01:15:14,790 --> 01:15:12,880
they were forged

2415
01:15:16,630 --> 01:15:14,800
yeah exactly he only goes so far and

2416
01:15:17,669 --> 01:15:16,640
then he stops right i mean this this is

2417
01:15:19,270 --> 01:15:17,679
why they like him

2418
01:15:21,189 --> 01:15:19,280
he's and this happens on a lot of fields

2419
01:15:22,470 --> 01:15:21,199
in technology and philosophy of mind as

2420
01:15:24,870 --> 01:15:22,480
well as religion

2421
01:15:25,510 --> 01:15:24,880
the the mainstream people like a safe

2422
01:15:26,870 --> 01:15:25,520
critic

2423
01:15:28,310 --> 01:15:26,880
because you because you gotta allow that

2424
01:15:29,990 --> 01:15:28,320
there are critics out there but you but

2425
01:15:31,030 --> 01:15:30,000
you don't want a really harsh critic you

2426
01:15:32,950 --> 01:15:31,040
want a safe critic

2427
01:15:34,070 --> 01:15:32,960
that doesn't go too far it doesn't press

2428
01:15:36,149 --> 01:15:34,080
the points too much

2429
01:15:37,830 --> 01:15:36,159
and then it can kind of be worked around

2430
01:15:39,750 --> 01:15:37,840
right so we see this in a lot

2431
01:15:42,229 --> 01:15:39,760
this is called controlled opposition

2432
01:15:43,830 --> 01:15:42,239
yeah well that's even that's even worse

2433
01:15:45,590 --> 01:15:43,840
right in the worst case they set

2434
01:15:47,110 --> 01:15:45,600
up a controlled opponent then it's

2435
01:15:47,990 --> 01:15:47,120
literally controlled opposition that's

2436
01:15:49,750 --> 01:15:48,000
really bad

2437
01:15:51,030 --> 01:15:49,760
but but of course there are sincere

2438
01:15:52,630 --> 01:15:51,040
people i i think

2439
01:15:54,630 --> 01:15:52,640
maybe ehrman is sincere i don't think

2440
01:15:55,590 --> 01:15:54,640
he's been set up but he's probably a

2441
01:15:57,030 --> 01:15:55,600
sincerely

2442
01:15:59,270 --> 01:15:57,040
mild critic and there's people in

2443
01:16:01,189 --> 01:15:59,280
technology side two and they get all the

2444
01:16:02,709 --> 01:16:01,199
airplay it's a lot easier to deal with a

2445
01:16:05,189 --> 01:16:02,719
mild critic of something

2446
01:16:07,110 --> 01:16:05,199
than a harsh critic of something and so

2447
01:16:07,590 --> 01:16:07,120
the the the mainstream media will always

2448
01:16:09,430 --> 01:16:07,600
prefer

2449
01:16:11,110 --> 01:16:09,440
the these mild critics to the real

2450
01:16:13,110 --> 01:16:11,120
critics because then that just throws

2451
01:16:14,310 --> 01:16:13,120
that overturns the whole apple cart and

2452
01:16:14,950 --> 01:16:14,320
then they really got a mess on their

2453
01:16:16,790 --> 01:16:14,960
hands

2454
01:16:18,310 --> 01:16:16,800
so so they like people like erm and they

2455
01:16:19,990 --> 01:16:18,320
like people like sherry turkel and the

2456
01:16:22,229 --> 01:16:20,000
technology side and so forth

2457
01:16:23,270 --> 01:16:22,239
gerund lanier and the technology side

2458
01:16:25,350 --> 01:16:23,280
these guys are safe

2459
01:16:26,950 --> 01:16:25,360
mild critics and we can talk to them and

2460
01:16:28,550 --> 01:16:26,960
we'll put them on the on the news and

2461
01:16:30,229 --> 01:16:28,560
we'll let them write books because

2462
01:16:31,590 --> 01:16:30,239
they're they we can we can manage them

2463
01:16:32,709 --> 01:16:31,600
we can live with their critiques because

2464
01:16:34,709 --> 01:16:32,719
it's not too harsh

2465
01:16:36,550 --> 01:16:34,719
but but a jesus hoax story or a

2466
01:16:38,470 --> 01:16:36,560
nietzschean kind of critique which is

2467
01:16:39,830 --> 01:16:38,480
where i was drawing from originally

2468
01:16:41,510 --> 01:16:39,840
oh no we don't want to talk about that

2469
01:16:42,229 --> 01:16:41,520
because that's just too dangerous and

2470
01:16:45,510 --> 01:16:42,239
it's too

2471
01:16:46,950 --> 01:16:45,520
really the root causes and we don't want

2472
01:16:49,669 --> 01:16:46,960
to talk about that

2473
01:16:50,390 --> 01:16:49,679
yeah i won't belabor this too long but i

2474
01:16:55,350 --> 01:16:50,400
i

2475
01:16:57,669 --> 01:16:55,360
two ways

2476
01:16:59,030 --> 01:16:57,679
one is the complete manufactured

2477
01:17:01,030 --> 01:16:59,040
controlled opposition

2478
01:17:02,390 --> 01:17:01,040
but the other is the kind of organic

2479
01:17:04,070 --> 01:17:02,400
controlled opposition

2480
01:17:06,070 --> 01:17:04,080
you know i can create controlled

2481
01:17:07,669 --> 01:17:06,080
opposition just by leaving a few

2482
01:17:09,270 --> 01:17:07,679
chunks of cheese in the right parts of

2483
01:17:12,149 --> 01:17:09,280
the maze and when people

2484
01:17:12,550 --> 01:17:12,159
emerge and take that role of you know

2485
01:17:14,470 --> 01:17:12,560
what

2486
01:17:15,830 --> 01:17:14,480
stalin called it the useful idiot thing

2487
01:17:17,189 --> 01:17:15,840
right you know it's like somebody's

2488
01:17:19,510 --> 01:17:17,199
going to stand up at a

2489
01:17:21,590 --> 01:17:19,520
student group and promote communism and

2490
01:17:24,390 --> 01:17:21,600
i never talked to the guy

2491
01:17:26,550 --> 01:17:24,400
great for me what can i do to without

2492
01:17:28,870 --> 01:17:26,560
anyone knowing it support that idea

2493
01:17:30,470 --> 01:17:28,880
cultivate that idea and further it along

2494
01:17:32,630 --> 01:17:30,480
so i don't think you would

2495
01:17:34,390 --> 01:17:32,640
disagree with the organic versus

2496
01:17:36,070 --> 01:17:34,400
manufactured controlled opposition

2497
01:17:38,390 --> 01:17:36,080
because i think it's it's your point i

2498
01:17:39,750 --> 01:17:38,400
mean it's that yeah yeah i think we get

2499
01:17:41,990 --> 01:17:39,760
i think we get both out there we see it

2500
01:17:43,270 --> 01:17:42,000
politics and you know military and

2501
01:17:45,270 --> 01:17:43,280
economics and other spheres right you

2502
01:17:46,870 --> 01:17:45,280
you probably get the organic the natural

2503
01:17:49,030 --> 01:17:46,880
the sincere kind of critics and then you

2504
01:17:51,189 --> 01:17:49,040
get sort of the constructed critics uh

2505
01:17:52,470 --> 01:17:51,199
the who who really they really want to

2506
01:17:53,590 --> 01:17:52,480
control the debate so they'll put

2507
01:17:55,270 --> 01:17:53,600
they'll create their own critic and then

2508
01:17:56,870 --> 01:17:55,280
they'll debate him because they know

2509
01:17:59,030 --> 01:17:56,880
they know his background and they know

2510
01:18:01,270 --> 01:17:59,040
what he's going to say

2511
01:18:03,110 --> 01:18:01,280
and yeah i mean for sure the same thing

2512
01:18:04,550 --> 01:18:03,120
happens in the in the jesus hoax

2513
01:18:05,110 --> 01:18:04,560
particularly because there's the jewish

2514
01:18:06,470 --> 01:18:05,120
angle

2515
01:18:07,990 --> 01:18:06,480
and nobody really wants to touch on this

2516
01:18:09,510 --> 01:18:08,000
one because this is a hot button topic

2517
01:18:10,790 --> 01:18:09,520
and we can't blame the jews for anything

2518
01:18:12,709 --> 01:18:10,800
we can't make them look bad

2519
01:18:14,310 --> 01:18:12,719
and we can't call them liars because

2520
01:18:15,830 --> 01:18:14,320
well that would sound like terribly bad

2521
01:18:17,430 --> 01:18:15,840
and anti-semitic and all this nice stuff

2522
01:18:19,750 --> 01:18:17,440
so nobody wants to go there

2523
01:18:20,790 --> 01:18:19,760
so all the safe critics will stop short

2524
01:18:23,189 --> 01:18:20,800
of pinning anything on

2525
01:18:24,070 --> 01:18:23,199
on paul or the jews and and sort of the

2526
01:18:25,430 --> 01:18:24,080
harsher critics will

2527
01:18:26,950 --> 01:18:25,440
say well look this is the reality of the

2528
01:18:27,750 --> 01:18:26,960
situation i'm sorry if you don't like it

2529
01:18:29,110 --> 01:18:27,760
but you know

2530
01:18:30,149 --> 01:18:29,120
we're getting down to the root cause

2531
01:18:31,510 --> 01:18:30,159
here and we've got to understand what

2532
01:18:32,870 --> 01:18:31,520
their motives were

2533
01:18:35,270 --> 01:18:32,880
that's what you have to do and that's

2534
01:18:36,470 --> 01:18:35,280
one thing i try to do in my book and

2535
01:18:38,310 --> 01:18:36,480
yeah i'm sure they're going to view me

2536
01:18:39,590 --> 01:18:38,320
as an unsafe critic so i

2537
01:18:41,750 --> 01:18:39,600
you know i probably won't be showing up

2538
01:18:43,350 --> 01:18:41,760
on the uh weekly news shows anytime

2539
01:18:44,870 --> 01:18:43,360
because that's too much publicity for a

2540
01:18:46,310 --> 01:18:44,880
harsh critique

2541
01:18:47,990 --> 01:18:46,320
it takes people like yourself who are

2542
01:18:50,390 --> 01:18:48,000
willing to do sort of you know really

2543
01:18:51,030 --> 01:18:50,400
look into the into the deeper issues and

2544
01:18:53,910 --> 01:18:51,040
really

2545
01:18:56,550 --> 01:18:53,920
willing to tackle these things right but

2546
01:18:59,750 --> 01:18:56,560
here's where we might kind of uh

2547
01:19:00,550 --> 01:18:59,760
take different paths down the road my

2548
01:19:03,990 --> 01:19:00,560
key figure

2549
01:19:06,470 --> 01:19:04,000
in this is josephus because when we

2550
01:19:07,669 --> 01:19:06,480
understand josephus who's right before

2551
01:19:10,709 --> 01:19:07,679
all these guys

2552
01:19:13,430 --> 01:19:10,719
we understand the roman play

2553
01:19:13,910 --> 01:19:13,440
that is kind of at hand and you know the

2554
01:19:16,390 --> 01:19:13,920
quote

2555
01:19:18,390 --> 01:19:16,400
i don't know if i'll share this with

2556
01:19:19,110 --> 01:19:18,400
everyone because i play it all the time

2557
01:19:21,830 --> 01:19:19,120
but

2558
01:19:22,470 --> 01:19:21,840
here is josephus from war of the jews

2559
01:19:24,390 --> 01:19:22,480
and

2560
01:19:26,229 --> 01:19:24,400
it's the most important thing in my

2561
01:19:27,910 --> 01:19:26,239
opinion that he ever says and i keep

2562
01:19:30,149 --> 01:19:27,920
pounding

2563
01:19:32,229 --> 01:19:30,159
biblical and religious scholars on this

2564
01:19:35,110 --> 01:19:32,239
and it's josephus who is

2565
01:19:36,149 --> 01:19:35,120
an elite power the power structure

2566
01:19:39,270 --> 01:19:36,159
within judea

2567
01:19:39,750 --> 01:19:39,280
he's the insider ultimate guy who's

2568
01:19:42,390 --> 01:19:39,760
really

2569
01:19:43,910 --> 01:19:42,400
in control right among the groups that's

2570
01:19:44,709 --> 01:19:43,920
really in control and they're completely

2571
01:19:47,669 --> 01:19:44,719
pro-roman

2572
01:19:48,470 --> 01:19:47,679
and what he's saying now is you know

2573
01:19:50,630 --> 01:19:48,480
what these

2574
01:19:52,310 --> 01:19:50,640
freaking jews and he is a jew he's not

2575
01:19:53,990 --> 01:19:52,320
only a jew he claims to be like a super

2576
01:19:56,709 --> 01:19:54,000
jew he says when i was 14

2577
01:19:57,510 --> 01:19:56,719
i was in the temple i knew everything so

2578
01:20:00,550 --> 01:19:57,520
he's saying hey

2579
01:20:01,270 --> 01:20:00,560
what really drove these jews nuts was

2580
01:20:05,910 --> 01:20:01,280
this

2581
01:20:08,709 --> 01:20:05,920
messiah would come from jewish soil

2582
01:20:10,070 --> 01:20:08,719
he says i got news for you guys it's

2583
01:20:13,350 --> 01:20:10,080
been fulfilled

2584
01:20:16,310 --> 01:20:13,360
it's vespasian because hey you know what

2585
01:20:18,229 --> 01:20:16,320
bespasian was actually technically now

2586
01:20:18,950 --> 01:20:18,239
he was promoted when he was on jewish

2587
01:20:22,629 --> 01:20:18,960
soil

2588
01:20:24,870 --> 01:20:22,639
this fulfills it so jews i'm telling you

2589
01:20:26,390 --> 01:20:24,880
as someone who went into the cave to

2590
01:20:28,870 --> 01:20:26,400
commit suicide and then had that

2591
01:20:29,750 --> 01:20:28,880
had this relevation now i have a another

2592
01:20:33,030 --> 01:20:29,760
revelation

2593
01:20:35,830 --> 01:20:33,040
and this is it you know this

2594
01:20:36,229 --> 01:20:35,840
is the beginning of the psyoptomy

2595
01:20:38,870 --> 01:20:36,239
there's

2596
01:20:40,709 --> 01:20:38,880
no other way to read this other than

2597
01:20:44,310 --> 01:20:40,719
propaganda psyop

2598
01:20:46,149 --> 01:20:44,320
in order to play a well-worn trick in

2599
01:20:48,629 --> 01:20:46,159
the roman playbook which is

2600
01:20:49,510 --> 01:20:48,639
hey well you know spears and shields

2601
01:20:52,390 --> 01:20:49,520
work great

2602
01:20:54,070 --> 01:20:52,400
but if i can spin you a story or

2603
01:20:56,310 --> 01:20:54,080
convince you of something or

2604
01:20:58,390 --> 01:20:56,320
co-opt your religious beliefs all the

2605
01:20:58,870 --> 01:20:58,400
better it just amplifies my military

2606
01:21:01,830 --> 01:20:58,880
power

2607
01:21:04,310 --> 01:21:01,840
and why wouldn't i so what do you think

2608
01:21:07,350 --> 01:21:04,320
about josephus as being the key to

2609
01:21:10,709 --> 01:21:07,360
understanding the beginnings of this

2610
01:21:12,550 --> 01:21:10,719
roman psyop program yeah

2611
01:21:14,470 --> 01:21:12,560
so right so we have to understand

2612
01:21:16,229 --> 01:21:14,480
josephus i mean he's been painted as

2613
01:21:19,189 --> 01:21:16,239
like one of the great traitors

2614
01:21:19,910 --> 01:21:19,199
in all of history he was on the jewish

2615
01:21:22,390 --> 01:21:19,920
side

2616
01:21:23,830 --> 01:21:22,400
to the extreme as you said he was on the

2617
01:21:26,070 --> 01:21:23,840
brink of being killed

2618
01:21:27,669 --> 01:21:26,080
he to save his skin he converts to the

2619
01:21:28,070 --> 01:21:27,679
roman side because the romans are in the

2620
01:21:30,229 --> 01:21:28,080
process

2621
01:21:32,550 --> 01:21:30,239
of slaughtering the jews he converts the

2622
01:21:34,870 --> 01:21:32,560
roman side agrees to work for pay

2623
01:21:37,430 --> 01:21:34,880
for the emperor and be their their man

2624
01:21:40,149 --> 01:21:37,440
their their envoy to the jewish world

2625
01:21:40,790 --> 01:21:40,159
and he becomes you know well paid and

2626
01:21:42,790 --> 01:21:40,800
and

2627
01:21:43,910 --> 01:21:42,800
influential because of this let me just

2628
01:21:45,510 --> 01:21:43,920
interject because i think there's a

2629
01:21:46,070 --> 01:21:45,520
really important point here that that

2630
01:21:48,390 --> 01:21:46,080
i've

2631
01:21:49,590 --> 01:21:48,400
kind of stumbled upon and i keep playing

2632
01:21:51,669 --> 01:21:49,600
this out to people

2633
01:21:53,430 --> 01:21:51,679
waiting for someone to slap me down and

2634
01:21:56,149 --> 01:21:53,440
all i get is further and further

2635
01:21:57,750 --> 01:21:56,159
support and that's it if you look at the

2636
01:21:58,629 --> 01:21:57,760
copper scrolls among the dead sea

2637
01:22:01,430 --> 01:21:58,639
scrolls

2638
01:22:03,110 --> 01:22:01,440
the the copper scroll is really kind of

2639
01:22:05,430 --> 01:22:03,120
a treasure list

2640
01:22:07,430 --> 01:22:05,440
it says here's where the treasure is

2641
01:22:08,709 --> 01:22:07,440
buried here's these tons of silver that

2642
01:22:10,149 --> 01:22:08,719
are buried here and here and here

2643
01:22:11,830 --> 01:22:10,159
and at the end of it it says this is a

2644
01:22:13,990 --> 01:22:11,840
copy

2645
01:22:15,270 --> 01:22:14,000
i think that's what josephus had that's

2646
01:22:17,510 --> 01:22:15,280
what joseph has traded

2647
01:22:18,470 --> 01:22:17,520
because what look at what joseph has got

2648
01:22:20,310 --> 01:22:18,480
joseph has got

2649
01:22:22,790 --> 01:22:20,320
not only his freedom but his freedom for

2650
01:22:25,110 --> 01:22:22,800
200 other people they got to cut rome

2651
01:22:26,790 --> 01:22:25,120
they got to live in vespasian's villa

2652
01:22:28,629 --> 01:22:26,800
they all that stuff

2653
01:22:30,629 --> 01:22:28,639
and the way that this is written that

2654
01:22:31,430 --> 01:22:30,639
somehow he was given all that because he

2655
01:22:34,070 --> 01:22:31,440
predicted

2656
01:22:35,750 --> 01:22:34,080
you know he made some i predict the

2657
01:22:38,470 --> 01:22:35,760
space and will be emperor okay

2658
01:22:39,110 --> 01:22:38,480
here's all your stuff how about the fact

2659
01:22:43,110 --> 01:22:39,120
that

2660
01:22:45,669 --> 01:22:43,120
the booty the loot

2661
01:22:48,470 --> 01:22:45,679
the gold that built the coliseum that we

2662
01:22:51,350 --> 01:22:48,480
see in the arch of titus

2663
01:22:52,550 --> 01:22:51,360
it wasn't just laying there for them to

2664
01:22:54,470 --> 01:22:52,560
come scoop it up

2665
01:22:55,590 --> 01:22:54,480
it was buried it was hidden they had a

2666
01:22:56,950 --> 01:22:55,600
90 day siege

2667
01:22:59,270 --> 01:22:56,960
who's going to sit around with all their

2668
01:23:00,790 --> 01:22:59,280
gold and go gee i i hope those romans

2669
01:23:01,430 --> 01:23:00,800
who we know are going to eventually kick

2670
01:23:02,950 --> 01:23:01,440
our ass

2671
01:23:05,669 --> 01:23:02,960
i hope they don't come in here and take

2672
01:23:07,590 --> 01:23:05,679
all our gold you bury it

2673
01:23:09,110 --> 01:23:07,600
josephus knew where it was buried and

2674
01:23:12,310 --> 01:23:09,120
that was the deal that was struck

2675
01:23:13,189 --> 01:23:12,320
and it struck again in 130 but that's a

2676
01:23:14,709 --> 01:23:13,199
different story

2677
01:23:16,390 --> 01:23:14,719
i just throw that out as a hypothesis

2678
01:23:18,629 --> 01:23:16,400
yeah there were two later revolutions in

2679
01:23:20,470 --> 01:23:18,639
115 and 130 roughly so

2680
01:23:22,390 --> 01:23:20,480
it was an unending battle i mean this

2681
01:23:24,629 --> 01:23:22,400
was going after many years right from

2682
01:23:25,990 --> 01:23:24,639
from the first uh jewish revolts that

2683
01:23:26,390 --> 01:23:26,000
was started about the year zero there

2684
01:23:28,629 --> 01:23:26,400
was a

2685
01:23:30,229 --> 01:23:28,639
act of resistance to the first major

2686
01:23:32,390 --> 01:23:30,239
revolt in the year 70 when the romans

2687
01:23:33,990 --> 01:23:32,400
destroyed the temple in jerusalem

2688
01:23:37,910 --> 01:23:34,000
and that was shortly after that that

2689
01:23:40,709 --> 01:23:37,920
josephus turned coat and became a roman

2690
01:23:42,310 --> 01:23:40,719
advocate right so i don't i guess i

2691
01:23:43,510 --> 01:23:42,320
don't know enough about the the story of

2692
01:23:44,870 --> 01:23:43,520
the hidden treasure i guess it's

2693
01:23:46,229 --> 01:23:44,880
certainly possible

2694
01:23:47,669 --> 01:23:46,239
you you have to assume that the romans

2695
01:23:49,350 --> 01:23:47,679
would have taken whatever was in the

2696
01:23:51,430 --> 01:23:49,360
treasury of the temple

2697
01:23:52,950 --> 01:23:51,440
so they hauled off those those goods

2698
01:23:54,870 --> 01:23:52,960
that was part of their booty

2699
01:23:56,470 --> 01:23:54,880
maybe they got guys like josephus to

2700
01:23:57,030 --> 01:23:56,480
talk and then maybe they hauled away

2701
01:24:00,149 --> 01:23:57,040
some yet

2702
01:24:02,229 --> 01:24:00,159
more more goods but i mean i

2703
01:24:03,510 --> 01:24:02,239
i don't know if it made it you know i

2704
01:24:05,110 --> 01:24:03,520
don't know if it made a difference to

2705
01:24:07,030 --> 01:24:05,120
the roman empire for god's sake you're

2706
01:24:08,390 --> 01:24:07,040
talking the roman empire right versus

2707
01:24:09,669 --> 01:24:08,400
you know a small tribe of jews in the

2708
01:24:11,189 --> 01:24:09,679
middle east so

2709
01:24:13,030 --> 01:24:11,199
i don't know how much your wealth they

2710
01:24:14,629 --> 01:24:13,040
could have had that it

2711
01:24:16,070 --> 01:24:14,639
made that much of a difference i'm sure

2712
01:24:17,750 --> 01:24:16,080
they were probably happy to get whatever

2713
01:24:19,750 --> 01:24:17,760
they could they could contestate

2714
01:24:22,390 --> 01:24:19,760
well i'll just throw this out probably

2715
01:24:26,870 --> 01:24:22,400
the the where it really had leverage

2716
01:24:29,830 --> 01:24:26,880
is with vespasian because vespasian is

2717
01:24:30,950 --> 01:24:29,840
a soldiers soldier and he knows what

2718
01:24:33,750 --> 01:24:30,960
motivates soldiers

2719
01:24:34,950 --> 01:24:33,760
and it's money so and and if you look at

2720
01:24:37,750 --> 01:24:34,960
the period you know

2721
01:24:39,270 --> 01:24:37,760
vespasian is made emperor during this

2722
01:24:40,070 --> 01:24:39,280
incredible turmoil where there's four

2723
01:24:43,830 --> 01:24:40,080
emperors in a

2724
01:24:45,590 --> 01:24:43,840
in a year period and then he emerges

2725
01:24:47,669 --> 01:24:45,600
after he goes to egypt

2726
01:24:49,910 --> 01:24:47,679
and he pulls all these mercenaries

2727
01:24:50,310 --> 01:24:49,920
together and then he sails into rome he

2728
01:24:53,350 --> 01:24:50,320
says

2729
01:24:54,950 --> 01:24:53,360
i'm the guy so imagine so you're right

2730
01:24:55,669 --> 01:24:54,960
maybe not the whole roman empire is

2731
01:24:58,629 --> 01:24:55,679
affected

2732
01:24:59,270 --> 01:24:58,639
but imagine if vespasian had that loot

2733
01:25:02,790 --> 01:24:59,280
could he

2734
01:25:05,510 --> 01:25:02,800
in a very tumultuous kind of

2735
01:25:07,189 --> 01:25:05,520
fluid situation whose emperor walk in

2736
01:25:10,390 --> 01:25:07,199
with the money and the mercenaries

2737
01:25:10,870 --> 01:25:10,400
and seize power that makes again that

2738
01:25:12,629 --> 01:25:10,880
makes

2739
01:25:13,910 --> 01:25:12,639
much more sense than any other story

2740
01:25:15,910 --> 01:25:13,920
i've heard

2741
01:25:17,750 --> 01:25:15,920
and therefore he brings along josephus

2742
01:25:20,550 --> 01:25:17,760
as as his financier

2743
01:25:21,990 --> 01:25:20,560
basically his financier historian and

2744
01:25:24,390 --> 01:25:22,000
also somebody who has to

2745
01:25:25,110 --> 01:25:24,400
yeah he they now are bound by you know

2746
01:25:27,110 --> 01:25:25,120
this is a

2747
01:25:28,550 --> 01:25:27,120
human intelligence kind of thing right i

2748
01:25:30,629 --> 01:25:28,560
need to keep an eye on you

2749
01:25:32,310 --> 01:25:30,639
you know yeah yeah it could could could

2750
01:25:33,910 --> 01:25:32,320
be i guess you know i don't have a

2751
01:25:34,629 --> 01:25:33,920
strong opinion either way i have no

2752
01:25:36,550 --> 01:25:34,639
problem with that

2753
01:25:38,629 --> 01:25:36,560
with that thesis i think it's probably

2754
01:25:40,070 --> 01:25:38,639
as likely that the space in needs again

2755
01:25:41,750 --> 01:25:40,080
he's his man

2756
01:25:42,870 --> 01:25:41,760
to talk to the jews because you still

2757
01:25:44,229 --> 01:25:42,880
got the problem with the jews even

2758
01:25:45,990 --> 01:25:44,239
though you wipe out the temple

2759
01:25:47,590 --> 01:25:46,000
you still got active revolt you have

2760
01:25:47,830 --> 01:25:47,600
resistance on your hand you still need

2761
01:25:50,550 --> 01:25:47,840
the

2762
01:25:51,910 --> 01:25:50,560
envoy to judea so you got to find

2763
01:25:53,590 --> 01:25:51,920
somebody what are you going to do you

2764
01:25:55,510 --> 01:25:53,600
know they had herod for a while

2765
01:25:57,750 --> 01:25:55,520
and and then then you need somebody you

2766
01:25:58,790 --> 01:25:57,760
need your own guy so it's not surprising

2767
01:26:00,550 --> 01:25:58,800
they dig up a guy like

2768
01:26:02,149 --> 01:26:00,560
like a josephus and they and they either

2769
01:26:05,270 --> 01:26:02,159
coerce him or bribe him to

2770
01:26:07,350 --> 01:26:05,280
to turn coat over to the roman side

2771
01:26:08,870 --> 01:26:07,360
and now he's working for rome he's

2772
01:26:10,629 --> 01:26:08,880
working for a vespasian

2773
01:26:13,270 --> 01:26:10,639
so everything that comes out of josephus

2774
01:26:15,189 --> 01:26:13,280
mouth is hey i love those romans

2775
01:26:17,110 --> 01:26:15,199
space and he's a great guy man he was

2776
01:26:19,189 --> 01:26:17,120
the oracle he's the savior he's the miss

2777
01:26:21,990 --> 01:26:19,199
whatever i mean this is this is the

2778
01:26:23,350 --> 01:26:22,000
typical you know suck up you know 101.

2779
01:26:26,870 --> 01:26:23,360
you're gonna play up your boss

2780
01:26:29,030 --> 01:26:26,880
big time okay now that but that does not

2781
01:26:30,709 --> 01:26:29,040
that does not obviate the whole jesus

2782
01:26:32,709 --> 01:26:30,719
hoax because

2783
01:26:35,030 --> 01:26:32,719
the problem is josephus seems to not

2784
01:26:38,550 --> 01:26:35,040
know about the jesus hoax until

2785
01:26:40,229 --> 01:26:38,560
the year 92 so so i mean it's very late

2786
01:26:41,590 --> 01:26:40,239
when he actually publishes in his very

2787
01:26:43,910 --> 01:26:41,600
small passage on on

2788
01:26:45,350 --> 01:26:43,920
the existence of jesus so there's a long

2789
01:26:47,270 --> 01:26:45,360
time there's several years in there when

2790
01:26:49,189 --> 01:26:47,280
he could have written or talked about it

2791
01:26:50,470 --> 01:26:49,199
he doesn't it's only very late it's not

2792
01:26:52,070 --> 01:26:50,480
even sure that's a legitimate

2793
01:26:54,149 --> 01:26:52,080
passage in josephus it might have been

2794
01:26:55,990 --> 01:26:54,159
added later by you know pro-christian

2795
01:26:58,390 --> 01:26:56,000
advocates we don't really know

2796
01:26:59,510 --> 01:26:58,400
so so i can accept pretty much though

2797
01:27:00,629 --> 01:26:59,520
pretty much the whole story about

2798
01:27:02,629 --> 01:27:00,639
josephus and i

2799
01:27:04,390 --> 01:27:02,639
said well look that has no bearing on

2800
01:27:07,510 --> 01:27:04,400
the jesus hoax story which says it was

2801
01:27:09,030 --> 01:27:07,520
paul the gospel writers in palestine

2802
01:27:11,030 --> 01:27:09,040
they were doing the writing they were

2803
01:27:12,550 --> 01:27:11,040
trying to still get back at rome

2804
01:27:14,390 --> 01:27:12,560
josephus doesn't want to get back at

2805
01:27:15,830 --> 01:27:14,400
rome he loves rome because rome's paying

2806
01:27:16,950 --> 01:27:15,840
him well giving him a nice house and

2807
01:27:18,709 --> 01:27:16,960
lots of perks

2808
01:27:20,229 --> 01:27:18,719
so he's got nothing against rome he's

2809
01:27:22,470 --> 01:27:20,239
going to play up rome paul

2810
01:27:23,270 --> 01:27:22,480
and the gospel writers they still hate

2811
01:27:24,790 --> 01:27:23,280
romans like

2812
01:27:26,390 --> 01:27:24,800
you know they hate their guts and they

2813
01:27:28,070 --> 01:27:26,400
want those guys dead they want them out

2814
01:27:30,149 --> 01:27:28,080
of here they want to destroy them

2815
01:27:31,590 --> 01:27:30,159
and they they do that for for decades

2816
01:27:33,350 --> 01:27:31,600
and like you said until the

2817
01:27:35,910 --> 01:27:33,360
to the second and third revolution and

2818
01:27:37,750 --> 01:27:35,920
uh in 115 and 130 a.d

2819
01:27:39,669 --> 01:27:37,760
so uh yeah i have no problem with it

2820
01:27:42,149 --> 01:27:39,679
with the josephus story at all

2821
01:27:43,910 --> 01:27:42,159
the other thing i read in josephus in

2822
01:27:46,950 --> 01:27:43,920
that passage that i sent

2823
01:27:48,550 --> 01:27:46,960
is that the romans are keenly aware of

2824
01:27:49,830 --> 01:27:48,560
the social engineering game as it

2825
01:27:52,870 --> 01:27:49,840
relates to religion

2826
01:27:53,750 --> 01:27:52,880
they're playing that hard and i think we

2827
01:27:55,669 --> 01:27:53,760
can look back

2828
01:27:57,189 --> 01:27:55,679
and kind of fail to see how it might

2829
01:27:59,669 --> 01:27:57,199
have looked to them because

2830
01:28:01,830 --> 01:27:59,679
on by all indications it seemed to me

2831
01:28:03,189 --> 01:28:01,840
that they thought they had a chance

2832
01:28:05,350 --> 01:28:03,199
they thought they had a chance with

2833
01:28:08,310 --> 01:28:05,360
josephus writing that and saying

2834
01:28:10,550 --> 01:28:08,320
hey you know vespasian is the messiah

2835
01:28:14,070 --> 01:28:10,560
maybe it works we throw it out there

2836
01:28:16,870 --> 01:28:14,080
and i just gotta believe that the second

2837
01:28:18,390 --> 01:28:16,880
act of that is the writing of the

2838
01:28:20,470 --> 01:28:18,400
gospels or somehow the

2839
01:28:22,149 --> 01:28:20,480
influencing of the gospels and that's

2840
01:28:24,870 --> 01:28:22,159
how i if you're going to put

2841
01:28:26,709 --> 01:28:24,880
paul in the front of that story i'm

2842
01:28:29,669 --> 01:28:26,719
going to immediately go there and say

2843
01:28:30,790 --> 01:28:29,679
to what extent is paul possibly being

2844
01:28:33,910 --> 01:28:30,800
compromised

2845
01:28:35,590 --> 01:28:33,920
being influenced or are the gospel

2846
01:28:36,229 --> 01:28:35,600
writers being compromised being

2847
01:28:39,030 --> 01:28:36,239
influenced

2848
01:28:40,950 --> 01:28:39,040
to play out what the romans are kind of

2849
01:28:43,990 --> 01:28:40,960
known to play out which is again a

2850
01:28:45,669 --> 01:28:44,000
a psyop game co-opting game yeah so of

2851
01:28:47,910 --> 01:28:45,679
course paul is too early for this paul

2852
01:28:50,390 --> 01:28:47,920
is working between 50 and 70 a.d before

2853
01:28:51,990 --> 01:28:50,400
the destruction of the temple so right

2854
01:28:54,229 --> 01:28:52,000
second act the second act you just do

2855
01:28:55,669 --> 01:28:54,239
okay so lauren so you got paul so you

2856
01:28:57,110 --> 01:28:55,679
can't bring paul into the story

2857
01:28:58,470 --> 01:28:57,120
maybe you can bring the gospel writers

2858
01:28:59,110 --> 01:28:58,480
into the story but you have to give some

2859
01:29:00,550 --> 01:28:59,120
evidence

2860
01:29:02,229 --> 01:29:00,560
so you have to go and i've heard this

2861
01:29:03,830 --> 01:29:02,239
sort of pushback too well the gospels

2862
01:29:05,830 --> 01:29:03,840
were pro-roman right

2863
01:29:07,990 --> 01:29:05,840
there's pro-roman propaganda in the

2864
01:29:10,470 --> 01:29:08,000
gospels and god knows how they got there

2865
01:29:11,990 --> 01:29:10,480
from josephus or whoever we don't know

2866
01:29:13,510 --> 01:29:12,000
and to me this is really pretty much

2867
01:29:15,189 --> 01:29:13,520
nonsense because if you look for the

2868
01:29:17,350 --> 01:29:15,199
actual evidence you can find literally

2869
01:29:19,270 --> 01:29:17,360
four or five passages in the entire new

2870
01:29:20,470 --> 01:29:19,280
testament that sound pro-roman

2871
01:29:22,550 --> 01:29:20,480
and i say well let's look at all the

2872
01:29:23,350 --> 01:29:22,560
passages that are anti-roman that are

2873
01:29:24,950 --> 01:29:23,360
rebellious

2874
01:29:26,470 --> 01:29:24,960
or against the roman worldview or

2875
01:29:28,149 --> 01:29:26,480
against the wealthy and the powerful

2876
01:29:29,750 --> 01:29:28,159
and i could come up with you know three

2877
01:29:31,510 --> 01:29:29,760
dozen of those and you can come up with

2878
01:29:32,629 --> 01:29:31,520
three or four passages on the other side

2879
01:29:33,910 --> 01:29:32,639
so i say well look what's the

2880
01:29:35,910 --> 01:29:33,920
preponderance of evidence

2881
01:29:37,590 --> 01:29:35,920
it's clearly on the anti-roman side

2882
01:29:39,350 --> 01:29:37,600
there's no that's not even close

2883
01:29:40,629 --> 01:29:39,360
and no one no one is able to give me a

2884
01:29:43,669 --> 01:29:40,639
counter argument there's there's

2885
01:29:45,750 --> 01:29:43,679
actually very little pro-roman evidence

2886
01:29:47,669 --> 01:29:45,760
in the new testament we're talking the

2887
01:29:48,950 --> 01:29:47,679
gospels the four gospels

2888
01:29:50,149 --> 01:29:48,960
it's not there in paul either for that

2889
01:29:51,030 --> 01:29:50,159
matter it's not anywhere in the new

2890
01:29:54,149 --> 01:29:51,040
testament

2891
01:29:56,070 --> 01:29:54,159
very little pro roman propaganda in the

2892
01:29:57,510 --> 01:29:56,080
gospels if they did propaganda i not

2893
01:29:59,430 --> 01:29:57,520
doubt and they did it but they probably

2894
01:30:00,790 --> 01:29:59,440
did it in other ways

2895
01:30:03,189 --> 01:30:00,800
not through the gospels because the

2896
01:30:05,189 --> 01:30:03,199
gospels were anti-roman

2897
01:30:06,870 --> 01:30:05,199
propaganda written by the jews to get

2898
01:30:07,350 --> 01:30:06,880
back at the roman overlords that's

2899
01:30:10,470 --> 01:30:07,360
that's

2900
01:30:13,910 --> 01:30:10,480
the most i don't read the gospels

2901
01:30:17,189 --> 01:30:13,920
as anti-roman as you do and i see them

2902
01:30:20,709 --> 01:30:17,199
as subtly pro-roman you know

2903
01:30:23,350 --> 01:30:20,719
the give unto caesar go the extra mile

2904
01:30:23,910 --> 01:30:23,360
uh pontius pilate i wash my hands of

2905
01:30:27,110 --> 01:30:23,920
this

2906
01:30:29,430 --> 01:30:27,120
kid growing up

2907
01:30:30,550 --> 01:30:29,440
in chicago going to a greek orthodox

2908
01:30:34,070 --> 01:30:30,560
church

2909
01:30:35,830 --> 01:30:34,080
you're a kid like me second generation i

2910
01:30:37,669 --> 01:30:35,840
knew only a few words of greek

2911
01:30:39,270 --> 01:30:37,679
so i sure didn't know that whole thing

2912
01:30:40,550 --> 01:30:39,280
they were spitting out they're all in

2913
01:30:42,709 --> 01:30:40,560
greek i had no idea

2914
01:30:44,550 --> 01:30:42,719
but you know what i knew i knew there

2915
01:30:47,350 --> 01:30:44,560
was that guy hanging up on that wall

2916
01:30:48,310 --> 01:30:47,360
and that kind of homoerotic jesus on the

2917
01:30:50,149 --> 01:30:48,320
wooden thing

2918
01:30:52,790 --> 01:30:50,159
and the other thing i knew i knew those

2919
01:30:53,350 --> 01:30:52,800
freaking jews were somehow responsible i

2920
01:30:54,950 --> 01:30:53,360
knew that

2921
01:30:56,550 --> 01:30:54,960
and when the guys got together

2922
01:30:56,950 --> 01:30:56,560
afterwards and we talked you know stuff

2923
01:30:58,629 --> 01:30:56,960
like that

2924
01:30:59,990 --> 01:30:58,639
and joked about the jews and stuff like

2925
01:31:02,470 --> 01:31:00,000
that it was always like

2926
01:31:04,870 --> 01:31:02,480
somehow they were responsible i think

2927
01:31:05,830 --> 01:31:04,880
the bible is incredibly anti-semitic

2928
01:31:07,669 --> 01:31:05,840
it's incredibly

2929
01:31:09,750 --> 01:31:07,679
this blame this on the jews kind of

2930
01:31:11,350 --> 01:31:09,760
thing and then i think the jews are

2931
01:31:13,750 --> 01:31:11,360
the jews which have really kind of a

2932
01:31:15,990 --> 01:31:13,760
very hokey hokey religion

2933
01:31:17,110 --> 01:31:16,000
you know this thunder god religion which

2934
01:31:19,430 --> 01:31:17,120
doesn't it's

2935
01:31:21,270 --> 01:31:19,440
the only reason it's propped up is

2936
01:31:22,709 --> 01:31:21,280
because of christianity and christianity

2937
01:31:24,629 --> 01:31:22,719
is dependent on judaism

2938
01:31:26,709 --> 01:31:24,639
and judaism seems to me to be playing

2939
01:31:28,390 --> 01:31:26,719
this role of the antagonists which at

2940
01:31:29,510 --> 01:31:28,400
the ultimate at the end of the day in a

2941
01:31:31,590 --> 01:31:29,520
very subtle way

2942
01:31:33,189 --> 01:31:31,600
they did kill jesus by the way you know

2943
01:31:35,750 --> 01:31:33,199
that's the one thing that you got

2944
01:31:37,590 --> 01:31:35,760
when you were at least what i got as a

2945
01:31:39,030 --> 01:31:37,600
greek orthodox kid they i can't really

2946
01:31:40,229 --> 01:31:39,040
read the bible but they're somehow

2947
01:31:43,110 --> 01:31:40,239
responsible

2948
01:31:44,229 --> 01:31:43,120
so yeah a couple things right so maybe

2949
01:31:45,510 --> 01:31:44,239
on a future show

2950
01:31:47,430 --> 01:31:45,520
we'll go through and we'll compare the

2951
01:31:48,149 --> 01:31:47,440
pro roman passages and the anti-roman

2952
01:31:49,510 --> 01:31:48,159
passages

2953
01:31:51,430 --> 01:31:49,520
and you can read me the three or four

2954
01:31:52,709 --> 01:31:51,440
that you have and i'll read you the 35

2955
01:31:53,990 --> 01:31:52,719
or 40 that i have

2956
01:31:55,350 --> 01:31:54,000
and then we'll talk about the pros and

2957
01:31:56,870 --> 01:31:55,360
the cons so i'd be happy to do that

2958
01:31:58,550 --> 01:31:56,880
that'll take a little bit a while but

2959
01:32:00,070 --> 01:31:58,560
we're happy to do that anytime give me a

2960
01:32:00,870 --> 01:32:00,080
couple of highlights that you think are

2961
01:32:03,910 --> 01:32:00,880
most

2962
01:32:06,310 --> 01:32:03,920
damning to the to the roman

2963
01:32:07,750 --> 01:32:06,320
uh power structure and if you have to

2964
01:32:08,070 --> 01:32:07,760
look them up that's fine and take your

2965
01:32:10,149 --> 01:32:08,080
time

2966
01:32:12,750 --> 01:32:10,159
okay so here's some anti-roman passages

2967
01:32:15,669 --> 01:32:12,760
right so we're talking about

2968
01:32:18,709 --> 01:32:15,679
non-materialist anti-wealth pac uh

2969
01:32:20,709 --> 01:32:18,719
passages so we we are railing against

2970
01:32:22,070 --> 01:32:20,719
the love of money against the wealthy

2971
01:32:24,229 --> 01:32:22,080
against the powerful

2972
01:32:25,830 --> 01:32:24,239
right blessed are the poor blessed are

2973
01:32:27,189 --> 01:32:25,840
the meek right these are not the romans

2974
01:32:30,550 --> 01:32:27,199
these are the common people

2975
01:32:31,830 --> 01:32:30,560
right uh wealthy man you know campbell

2976
01:32:33,430 --> 01:32:31,840
through the needle's eye you got

2977
01:32:34,790 --> 01:32:33,440
wealthy man's not getting into heaven

2978
01:32:36,950 --> 01:32:34,800
those weren't realty romans they're not

2979
01:32:41,030 --> 01:32:36,960
getting heaven only the poor are

2980
01:32:45,270 --> 01:32:41,040
um you can serve either god or mammon

2981
01:32:47,350 --> 01:32:45,280
yeah okay that won't work um

2982
01:32:48,950 --> 01:32:47,360
your riches have rotted we see this in

2983
01:32:52,790 --> 01:32:48,960
some of the letters right

2984
01:32:54,149 --> 01:32:52,800
um yeah we have paul's letters we have

2985
01:32:56,790 --> 01:32:54,159
talked about the present evil

2986
01:32:59,189 --> 01:32:56,800
age we have the slaves will become free

2987
01:33:00,310 --> 01:32:59,199
these are in paul jesus delivers us from

2988
01:33:03,830 --> 01:33:00,320
satan from uh

2989
01:33:05,270 --> 01:33:03,840
to god right we talk about there's these

2990
01:33:07,590 --> 01:33:05,280
militaristic terms talking about the

2991
01:33:10,229 --> 01:33:07,600
breastplate of faith and the helmet of

2992
01:33:11,830 --> 01:33:10,239
hope right these things are sort of in

2993
01:33:16,149 --> 01:33:11,840
first thessalonians

2994
01:33:17,830 --> 01:33:16,159
um we have you know god will crush satan

2995
01:33:19,270 --> 01:33:17,840
who's let's talk about satan who's the

2996
01:33:21,110 --> 01:33:19,280
satan in the world it's the romans the

2997
01:33:21,990 --> 01:33:21,120
roman power that's the satan of the

2998
01:33:24,790 --> 01:33:22,000
world it's not some

2999
01:33:25,590 --> 01:33:24,800
devil characters running around if we

3000
01:33:28,790 --> 01:33:25,600
look at the

3001
01:33:30,870 --> 01:33:28,800
gospel specifically we talk about

3002
01:33:32,870 --> 01:33:30,880
surrendering your life right lose your

3003
01:33:34,950 --> 01:33:32,880
life for my sake

3004
01:33:36,870 --> 01:33:34,960
the first shall be last and the last

3005
01:33:38,310 --> 01:33:36,880
shall be first who's going to win

3006
01:33:40,470 --> 01:33:38,320
it's the low and the downtrodden who are

3007
01:33:42,149 --> 01:33:40,480
going to win out nation will go against

3008
01:33:43,830 --> 01:33:42,159
nation we will fight against you know

3009
01:33:45,350 --> 01:33:43,840
you will be against your own family on

3010
01:33:47,430 --> 01:33:45,360
my behalf

3011
01:33:48,790 --> 01:33:47,440
jesus says i've come not to bring peace

3012
01:33:51,350 --> 01:33:48,800
but a sword

3013
01:33:51,990 --> 01:33:51,360
whoever is not with me is against me the

3014
01:33:54,870 --> 01:33:52,000
end will

3015
01:33:55,590 --> 01:33:54,880
come right the devil rules the worldly

3016
01:33:58,149 --> 01:33:55,600
kingdom

3017
01:34:00,390 --> 01:33:58,159
i come here says jesus to cast a fire

3018
01:34:02,310 --> 01:34:00,400
bring not peace but division

3019
01:34:04,950 --> 01:34:02,320
bring your enemies here before me and

3020
01:34:07,189 --> 01:34:04,960
slay me if you don't have a sword sell

3021
01:34:10,709 --> 01:34:07,199
your cloak and buy one

3022
01:34:11,910 --> 01:34:10,719
uh the whole world is ruled by the evil

3023
01:34:15,750 --> 01:34:11,920
one

3024
01:34:16,390 --> 01:34:15,760
that that pop out you know the sword

3025
01:34:18,870 --> 01:34:16,400
thing i

3026
01:34:20,790 --> 01:34:18,880
i'm with you i get that there's heart

3027
01:34:23,110 --> 01:34:20,800
hard to interpret that differently

3028
01:34:23,910 --> 01:34:23,120
most of the other ones about wealth seem

3029
01:34:28,310 --> 01:34:23,920
to

3030
01:34:30,629 --> 01:34:28,320
feudalistic system that

3031
01:34:32,709 --> 01:34:30,639
uh constantine who is completely a

3032
01:34:34,550 --> 01:34:32,719
fraudulent kind of character that

3033
01:34:36,470 --> 01:34:34,560
that he gets propped up as a christian

3034
01:34:39,510 --> 01:34:36,480
christian ideals he's he's

3035
01:34:41,350 --> 01:34:39,520
clearly a pagan he's so leviticus

3036
01:34:42,709 --> 01:34:41,360
from the get-go but that not

3037
01:34:45,350 --> 01:34:42,719
withstanding

3038
01:34:45,750 --> 01:34:45,360
i mean the the counter hypothesis is

3039
01:34:49,750 --> 01:34:45,760
that

3040
01:34:52,870 --> 01:34:49,760
create with christianity

3041
01:34:55,510 --> 01:34:52,880
among the among that population

3042
01:34:56,470 --> 01:34:55,520
is hey your reward will come later don't

3043
01:34:58,470 --> 01:34:56,480
worry about it

3044
01:35:00,070 --> 01:34:58,480
and then you know give unto caesar what

3045
01:35:00,629 --> 01:35:00,080
caesar because it doesn't matter you

3046
01:35:02,550 --> 01:35:00,639
know come

3047
01:35:03,669 --> 01:35:02,560
go the extra mile which you know my

3048
01:35:05,430 --> 01:35:03,679
buddy joe at well

3049
01:35:07,590 --> 01:35:05,440
trace down you know it means hey take

3050
01:35:09,270 --> 01:35:07,600
that roman backpack of the soldier

3051
01:35:11,189 --> 01:35:09,280
and don't k and you're by law you're

3052
01:35:12,310 --> 01:35:11,199
required to carry a mile go an extra

3053
01:35:15,109 --> 01:35:12,320
mile for

3054
01:35:16,550 --> 01:35:15,119
for that so i kind of get what you're

3055
01:35:18,390 --> 01:35:16,560
saying but you understand that it could

3056
01:35:20,390 --> 01:35:18,400
be interpreted as

3057
01:35:21,990 --> 01:35:20,400
again if you look at it as a social

3058
01:35:22,709 --> 01:35:22,000
engineering project a way to control

3059
01:35:24,310 --> 01:35:22,719
people

3060
01:35:25,750 --> 01:35:24,320
a lot of that fits in that other camp

3061
01:35:27,830 --> 01:35:25,760
too well okay

3062
01:35:29,270 --> 01:35:27,840
i i yeah i mean you will have to go

3063
01:35:30,550 --> 01:35:29,280
through the passages in detail again

3064
01:35:32,390 --> 01:35:30,560
maybe we could do that another time you

3065
01:35:34,149 --> 01:35:32,400
know but but you know the the render to

3066
01:35:35,350 --> 01:35:34,159
caesar and pay your taxes and love thy

3067
01:35:37,750 --> 01:35:35,360
neighbor i mean those are literally

3068
01:35:40,629 --> 01:35:37,760
three or four passages that you see

3069
01:35:41,990 --> 01:35:40,639
in the gospels and and you know you have

3070
01:35:44,550 --> 01:35:42,000
to sort of make a coherent story

3071
01:35:46,070 --> 01:35:44,560
about these things and it's i know

3072
01:35:47,830 --> 01:35:46,080
there's there's so many that are sort of

3073
01:35:49,030 --> 01:35:47,840
you know violent revolutionary

3074
01:35:50,790 --> 01:35:49,040
rebellious

3075
01:35:52,550 --> 01:35:50,800
it's hard to see how that fits into a

3076
01:35:55,189 --> 01:35:52,560
peaceful loving just become

3077
01:35:56,950 --> 01:35:55,199
go to work pay your taxes don't rattle

3078
01:35:58,229 --> 01:35:56,960
don't be a rabble rouser i mean that's

3079
01:36:00,149 --> 01:35:58,239
what roma is going to want to

3080
01:36:02,070 --> 01:36:00,159
portray but you see all these you that's

3081
01:36:04,189 --> 01:36:02,080
not what you see you see all these

3082
01:36:06,470 --> 01:36:04,199
sort of you know belligerent

3083
01:36:07,270 --> 01:36:06,480
antagonistic kind of passages that are

3084
01:36:08,709 --> 01:36:07,280
there that

3085
01:36:11,109 --> 01:36:08,719
people have a heart that people like at

3086
01:36:12,950 --> 01:36:11,119
will have a hard time explaining the

3087
01:36:14,950 --> 01:36:12,960
the peaceful jesus people have a hard

3088
01:36:16,070 --> 01:36:14,960
time explaining it's only when you read

3089
01:36:17,990 --> 01:36:16,080
it as a kind of a

3090
01:36:19,990 --> 01:36:18,000
as kind of a hoax story and kind of a as

3091
01:36:21,750 --> 01:36:20,000
a manual for sort of rebellion

3092
01:36:23,510 --> 01:36:21,760
that it starts to make sense at least in

3093
01:36:24,950 --> 01:36:23,520
my opinion

3094
01:36:27,030 --> 01:36:24,960
david you've been super generous with

3095
01:36:27,830 --> 01:36:27,040
your time i got one more little area i

3096
01:36:29,750 --> 01:36:27,840
wanted

3097
01:36:31,189 --> 01:36:29,760
it's kind of a hot issue for me always

3098
01:36:33,830 --> 01:36:31,199
bring it up

3099
01:36:35,270 --> 01:36:33,840
one of the the limitations i always feel

3100
01:36:36,310 --> 01:36:35,280
like we're dealing with with this

3101
01:36:38,709 --> 01:36:36,320
history

3102
01:36:40,229 --> 01:36:38,719
is that we're not acknowledging that

3103
01:36:41,270 --> 01:36:40,239
these people are having spiritual

3104
01:36:48,390 --> 01:36:41,280
experiences

3105
01:36:49,430 --> 01:36:48,400
so near-death experience science or

3106
01:36:51,910 --> 01:36:49,440
reincarnation

3107
01:36:53,189 --> 01:36:51,920
science which kind of at this point is

3108
01:36:55,669 --> 01:36:53,199
so

3109
01:36:57,669 --> 01:36:55,679
conclusive that there is this extended

3110
01:36:59,430 --> 01:36:57,679
realm and that spiritual experiences

3111
01:37:02,470 --> 01:36:59,440
even though we don't know what they are

3112
01:37:05,109 --> 01:37:02,480
are real do we

3113
01:37:07,109 --> 01:37:05,119
limit this history when we don't look at

3114
01:37:08,790 --> 01:37:07,119
it through a spiritual lens

3115
01:37:10,950 --> 01:37:08,800
you know i just hadn't had a chance to

3116
01:37:13,669 --> 01:37:10,960
interview dr elaine pagels

3117
01:37:14,470 --> 01:37:13,679
who i really enjoyed and i kind of put

3118
01:37:15,990 --> 01:37:14,480
this to her

3119
01:37:18,390 --> 01:37:16,000
and she comes and goes yeah well i've

3120
01:37:20,950 --> 01:37:18,400
had a couple of really significant

3121
01:37:22,310 --> 01:37:20,960
spiritual experiences and she does seem

3122
01:37:24,229 --> 01:37:22,320
the divide between

3123
01:37:26,629 --> 01:37:24,239
why don't we ever talk about that and

3124
01:37:29,270 --> 01:37:26,639
yet that is her personal experience

3125
01:37:30,470 --> 01:37:29,280
do you think we're leaving the rich

3126
01:37:33,830 --> 01:37:30,480
spiritual life

3127
01:37:36,870 --> 01:37:33,840
of these people out of the equation

3128
01:37:38,870 --> 01:37:36,880
potentially you're right i mean so i'm i

3129
01:37:40,149 --> 01:37:38,880
try not to shut off that possibility i'm

3130
01:37:41,189 --> 01:37:40,159
open to the idea that there's some kind

3131
01:37:43,350 --> 01:37:41,199
of you know

3132
01:37:45,109 --> 01:37:43,360
spiritual aspect of the world or i if

3133
01:37:47,430 --> 01:37:45,119
you want to call it supernatural i don't

3134
01:37:49,669 --> 01:37:47,440
i tend to not talk in those terms

3135
01:37:50,870 --> 01:37:49,679
um but there could be let's say

3136
01:37:55,109 --> 01:37:50,880
unexplored or

3137
01:37:56,390 --> 01:37:55,119
un uh misunderstood aspects of reality

3138
01:37:58,149 --> 01:37:56,400
that could be that could count as

3139
01:37:59,669 --> 01:37:58,159
spiritual aspects of the world that

3140
01:38:01,270 --> 01:37:59,679
people might have some kind of ability

3141
01:38:04,149 --> 01:38:01,280
to experience these things or tap

3142
01:38:05,430 --> 01:38:04,159
into them i think you know the problem

3143
01:38:06,950 --> 01:38:05,440
is these tend to be very

3144
01:38:08,470 --> 01:38:06,960
incoherent and they tend to be sort of

3145
01:38:10,709 --> 01:38:08,480
just like like feel

3146
01:38:12,870 --> 01:38:10,719
vague feelings or you know general

3147
01:38:15,669 --> 01:38:12,880
insights or i saw the you know the

3148
01:38:16,950 --> 01:38:15,679
bright white light or i had a feeling of

3149
01:38:20,629 --> 01:38:16,960
you know

3150
01:38:23,030 --> 01:38:20,639
or something like that

3151
01:38:25,510 --> 01:38:23,040
i mean sort of very incoherent kind of

3152
01:38:27,270 --> 01:38:25,520
nebulous kind of concepts

3153
01:38:28,709 --> 01:38:27,280
okay but maybe that's true that's not

3154
01:38:31,109 --> 01:38:28,719
really the data that certainly isn't the

3155
01:38:33,270 --> 01:38:31,119
near-death experience data and

3156
01:38:34,790 --> 01:38:33,280
i just interviewed dr bruce grayson from

3157
01:38:36,870 --> 01:38:34,800
university of virginia who's

3158
01:38:38,470 --> 01:38:36,880
studied it for 40 years i interviewed

3159
01:38:39,669 --> 01:38:38,480
evan alexander who's the harvard

3160
01:38:42,149 --> 01:38:39,679
neurosurgeon

3161
01:38:43,510 --> 01:38:42,159
who had a near-death experience and then

3162
01:38:44,629 --> 01:38:43,520
but the most

3163
01:38:46,709 --> 01:38:44,639
what are they seeing it can only be

3164
01:38:48,070 --> 01:38:46,719
out-of-body experiences or what are they

3165
01:38:49,270 --> 01:38:48,080
what are they actually experiencing

3166
01:38:50,629 --> 01:38:49,280
i was just going to throw one more thing

3167
01:38:51,669 --> 01:38:50,639
on the table because i think the most

3168
01:38:55,270 --> 01:38:51,679
significant

3169
01:38:58,390 --> 01:38:55,280
that contemporary data

3170
01:39:01,830 --> 01:38:58,400
in i like the work of dr gregory shushan

3171
01:39:04,229 --> 01:39:01,840
who did a cross-cultural cross-time

3172
01:39:05,030 --> 01:39:04,239
analysis of near-death experience

3173
01:39:07,189 --> 01:39:05,040
accounts

3174
01:39:08,310 --> 01:39:07,199
and you know he's an oxford guy super

3175
01:39:11,830 --> 01:39:08,320
smart guy

3176
01:39:13,990 --> 01:39:11,840
and his conclusion was that every wisdom

3177
01:39:17,189 --> 01:39:14,000
tradition that he encountered

3178
01:39:20,790 --> 01:39:17,199
that their afterlife beliefs in

3179
01:39:23,270 --> 01:39:20,800
almost every case were based on

3180
01:39:24,550 --> 01:39:23,280
near-death experiences so he traced the

3181
01:39:25,430 --> 01:39:24,560
common elements of the near-death

3182
01:39:28,070 --> 01:39:25,440
experience

3183
01:39:28,629 --> 01:39:28,080
with their afterlife beliefs and a lot

3184
01:39:30,950 --> 01:39:28,639
of times

3185
01:39:32,470 --> 01:39:30,960
in their culture they said hey you know

3186
01:39:35,910 --> 01:39:32,480
we believed one thing

3187
01:39:39,590 --> 01:39:35,920
and then you know running bear had an

3188
01:39:41,750 --> 01:39:39,600
nde and then we believed something else

3189
01:39:43,270 --> 01:39:41,760
and it was confirmed by you know

3190
01:39:45,430 --> 01:39:43,280
all these other people so we do have a

3191
01:39:47,430 --> 01:39:45,440
lot of data there it's not just

3192
01:39:49,350 --> 01:39:47,440
you know fuzzy you know always out of

3193
01:39:50,790 --> 01:39:49,360
thing you know okay right so i mean even

3194
01:39:52,550 --> 01:39:50,800
if we allow that there is some kind of

3195
01:39:53,910 --> 01:39:52,560
survival after death right that's right

3196
01:39:55,270 --> 01:39:53,920
what we're talking about hypothetically

3197
01:39:57,830 --> 01:39:55,280
we put that on the table

3198
01:39:59,189 --> 01:39:57,840
hypothetically so but but but still what

3199
01:40:00,790 --> 01:39:59,199
does that tell us you know they they

3200
01:40:02,149 --> 01:40:00,800
don't they don't go to another planet

3201
01:40:03,750 --> 01:40:02,159
and they're describing what's going on

3202
01:40:05,030 --> 01:40:03,760
they don't go to heaven and talk to god

3203
01:40:06,310 --> 01:40:05,040
and then come back and say well here's

3204
01:40:07,910 --> 01:40:06,320
what things that god told me

3205
01:40:09,590 --> 01:40:07,920
i mean they don't have those guys all of

3206
01:40:12,229 --> 01:40:09,600
this is a survival post

3207
01:40:13,510 --> 01:40:12,239
death okay i can accept that i mean you

3208
01:40:15,189 --> 01:40:13,520
know we don't know what that means is it

3209
01:40:16,550 --> 01:40:15,199
reincarnation does it go into another

3210
01:40:18,629 --> 01:40:16,560
dimension

3211
01:40:19,830 --> 01:40:18,639
you know nobody really knows right well

3212
01:40:21,109 --> 01:40:19,840
we don't know for sure we have a pretty

3213
01:40:22,629 --> 01:40:21,119
good idea but here's where i was going

3214
01:40:25,350 --> 01:40:22,639
with it not to get too

3215
01:40:26,070 --> 01:40:25,360
into that whole other area the way i was

3216
01:40:29,109 --> 01:40:26,080
put it is

3217
01:40:31,669 --> 01:40:29,119
vespasian hey man i'm a dad

3218
01:40:33,030 --> 01:40:31,679
vespasian was a dad he wanted what was

3219
01:40:34,629 --> 01:40:33,040
best for his boys

3220
01:40:36,310 --> 01:40:34,639
didn't quite turn out like that because

3221
01:40:38,310 --> 01:40:36,320
i think domitian killed

3222
01:40:40,390 --> 01:40:38,320
titus but that's another story but

3223
01:40:41,189 --> 01:40:40,400
vespasian is laying there at two o'clock

3224
01:40:44,070 --> 01:40:41,199
in the morning

3225
01:40:45,990 --> 01:40:44,080
and he's looking up at the stars just

3226
01:40:47,669 --> 01:40:46,000
like i do sometimes and thinking

3227
01:40:49,430 --> 01:40:47,679
what's going to happen have i done

3228
01:40:50,229 --> 01:40:49,440
everything i could what is the weight of

3229
01:40:53,030 --> 01:40:50,239
my soul

3230
01:40:54,629 --> 01:40:53,040
you know and uh what happened when i ran

3231
01:40:56,790 --> 01:40:54,639
my sword through that druid

3232
01:40:58,550 --> 01:40:56,800
up in britainia you know is there a

3233
01:40:59,030 --> 01:40:58,560
moral imperative did i do something

3234
01:41:02,310 --> 01:40:59,040
wrong

3235
01:41:04,709 --> 01:41:02,320
he's wrestling with all the spiritual

3236
01:41:06,390 --> 01:41:04,719
questions that we all have wrestled with

3237
01:41:09,430 --> 01:41:06,400
throughout time and no matter how you

3238
01:41:10,149 --> 01:41:09,440
you come down on it it's real it's a

3239
01:41:13,109 --> 01:41:10,159
real

3240
01:41:14,550 --> 01:41:13,119
part of who these people are well so so

3241
01:41:17,350 --> 01:41:14,560
the the basic question is

3242
01:41:18,870 --> 01:41:17,360
if your soul there's a whole question

3243
01:41:21,030 --> 01:41:18,880
about whether you even have a soul

3244
01:41:22,629 --> 01:41:21,040
that can survive death because if you

3245
01:41:23,910 --> 01:41:22,639
accept that now you're in a duelist

3246
01:41:25,270 --> 01:41:23,920
metaphysics and we're back to those

3247
01:41:26,709 --> 01:41:25,280
problems we talked about before which is

3248
01:41:28,229 --> 01:41:26,719
extremely hard to explain that

3249
01:41:29,910 --> 01:41:28,239
but if we put that aside and say you do

3250
01:41:30,470 --> 01:41:29,920
have some kind of soul that survives

3251
01:41:32,709 --> 01:41:30,480
death

3252
01:41:34,229 --> 01:41:32,719
a second part of you not hard for the

3253
01:41:35,990 --> 01:41:34,239
idealist though right i mean

3254
01:41:37,830 --> 01:41:36,000
not so hard for you but for a lot of

3255
01:41:38,790 --> 01:41:37,840
people it's hard to explain but but but

3256
01:41:41,590 --> 01:41:38,800
the question is

3257
01:41:42,070 --> 01:41:41,600
does the the life of that future soul in

3258
01:41:43,750 --> 01:41:42,080
the next

3259
01:41:46,229 --> 01:41:43,760
life or wherever it is does that relate

3260
01:41:47,990 --> 01:41:46,239
in any way to what you do in this life

3261
01:41:50,070 --> 01:41:48,000
and this is a very core question that

3262
01:41:50,709 --> 01:41:50,080
cuts across all religions and cultures

3263
01:41:54,629 --> 01:41:50,719
right

3264
01:41:57,350 --> 01:41:54,639
that my soul

3265
01:41:58,229 --> 01:41:57,360
when i die is happier better healthier

3266
01:42:01,350 --> 01:41:58,239
whatever

3267
01:42:02,950 --> 01:42:01,360
yes you do well to me this is the core

3268
01:42:04,550 --> 01:42:02,960
of like all religions this goes back to

3269
01:42:05,990 --> 01:42:04,560
the egyptian book of the dead and all

3270
01:42:07,669 --> 01:42:06,000
these early early things

3271
01:42:09,669 --> 01:42:07,679
do i i have to make sure i do the right

3272
01:42:12,629 --> 01:42:09,679
thing here so that when i go

3273
01:42:13,270 --> 01:42:12,639
there i'll be in good shape and and

3274
01:42:15,189 --> 01:42:13,280
around this

3275
01:42:17,109 --> 01:42:15,199
very simple fact of which nobody can

3276
01:42:18,390 --> 01:42:17,119
really confirm because we can't go there

3277
01:42:19,750 --> 01:42:18,400
and come back really

3278
01:42:21,350 --> 01:42:19,760
what do you mean really because this is

3279
01:42:22,790 --> 01:42:21,360
exactly the evidence i'm kind of telling

3280
01:42:24,870 --> 01:42:22,800
you about so gregory shushan

3281
01:42:27,590 --> 01:42:24,880
is saying gregory shushan is saying by

3282
01:42:28,870 --> 01:42:27,600
the best methods we have that we accept

3283
01:42:30,709 --> 01:42:28,880
because we can ask people whether

3284
01:42:32,390 --> 01:42:30,719
they're depressed and whether they did a

3285
01:42:34,149 --> 01:42:32,400
particular treatment whether they're not

3286
01:42:36,310 --> 01:42:34,159
go ahead i'm sorry but what they can't

3287
01:42:38,709 --> 01:42:36,320
tell you is i had a good

3288
01:42:39,910 --> 01:42:38,719
i had i went to the to the light because

3289
01:42:41,830 --> 01:42:39,920
i was a good person here

3290
01:42:43,189 --> 01:42:41,840
and i went to a pit of darkness because

3291
01:42:44,629 --> 01:42:43,199
i was a bad person here

3292
01:42:45,990 --> 01:42:44,639
nobody can tell you that because there's

3293
01:42:47,830 --> 01:42:46,000
no evidence for that that becomes

3294
01:42:49,510 --> 01:42:47,840
demoralizing theology

3295
01:42:51,030 --> 01:42:49,520
which gets baked into all the

3296
01:42:52,950 --> 01:42:51,040
traditional religious stories

3297
01:42:54,310 --> 01:42:52,960
we create religious stories to try to

3298
01:42:56,629 --> 01:42:54,320
get us to do the good

3299
01:42:57,669 --> 01:42:56,639
thing because as a kind of carrot and

3300
01:42:58,790 --> 01:42:57,679
stick you don't want to go

3301
01:43:00,390 --> 01:42:58,800
you want to go to the light place you

3302
01:43:00,870 --> 01:43:00,400
don't want to go to the dark place or

3303
01:43:04,229 --> 01:43:00,880
what

3304
01:43:05,910 --> 01:43:04,239
plato this is in homer

3305
01:43:07,590 --> 01:43:05,920
there's all these kind of incentives to

3306
01:43:10,149 --> 01:43:07,600
take advantage of this unknown

3307
01:43:11,830 --> 01:43:10,159
future realm to try to get you by hook

3308
01:43:14,149 --> 01:43:11,840
or by crook to do the good

3309
01:43:16,310 --> 01:43:14,159
thing while you're here well there's

3310
01:43:19,030 --> 01:43:16,320
certainly you can co-opt it

3311
01:43:19,510 --> 01:43:19,040
um and and and that's what i always say

3312
01:43:21,350 --> 01:43:19,520
and

3313
01:43:22,550 --> 01:43:21,360
it's the disintermediation thing but i

3314
01:43:23,189 --> 01:43:22,560
don't want to get into that too far but

3315
01:43:25,430 --> 01:43:23,199
it's like

3316
01:43:27,270 --> 01:43:25,440
of course as soon as you have a genuine

3317
01:43:28,470 --> 01:43:27,280
spiritual experience count on somebody

3318
01:43:28,950 --> 01:43:28,480
jumping in the middle of that and saying

3319
01:43:30,550 --> 01:43:28,960
okay

3320
01:43:31,990 --> 01:43:30,560
now that you've had that let me

3321
01:43:34,149 --> 01:43:32,000
interpret that for you let me be the

3322
01:43:36,790 --> 01:43:34,159
mediator of what that is

3323
01:43:37,669 --> 01:43:36,800
but i would suggest that the data at

3324
01:43:40,229 --> 01:43:37,679
this point

3325
01:43:41,590 --> 01:43:40,239
is uh overwhelming the the data for

3326
01:43:44,310 --> 01:43:41,600
reincarnation

3327
01:43:46,149 --> 01:43:44,320
is irrefutable as far as i can is

3328
01:43:46,629 --> 01:43:46,159
unchallenged irrefutable isn't a good

3329
01:43:48,790 --> 01:43:46,639
word

3330
01:43:50,310 --> 01:43:48,800
it's unchallenged so ian stevenson at

3331
01:43:53,590 --> 01:43:50,320
the university of virginia

3332
01:43:57,830 --> 01:43:53,600
multiple

3333
01:44:00,390 --> 01:43:57,840
peer-reviewed journals articles they

3334
01:44:03,990 --> 01:44:00,400
even have physical evidence where

3335
01:44:07,590 --> 01:44:04,000
birthmarks and then they trace the uh

3336
01:44:09,590 --> 01:44:07,600
proposed or hypothesized a reincarnated

3337
01:44:11,430 --> 01:44:09,600
former life kind of thing all that kind

3338
01:44:12,629 --> 01:44:11,440
of stuff and so the question about the

3339
01:44:15,590 --> 01:44:12,639
moral imperative

3340
01:44:17,510 --> 01:44:15,600
really comes down to is it completely

3341
01:44:19,910 --> 01:44:17,520
manufactured as you say

3342
01:44:21,750 --> 01:44:19,920
or is there evidence that people have

3343
01:44:22,790 --> 01:44:21,760
encountered an extended realm and have

3344
01:44:24,070 --> 01:44:22,800
learned something

3345
01:44:25,750 --> 01:44:24,080
and what they've learned is that there

3346
01:44:26,550 --> 01:44:25,760
is a moral empire there is a moral

3347
01:44:28,470 --> 01:44:26,560
imperative

3348
01:44:29,830 --> 01:44:28,480
and is that in fact factual well the

3349
01:44:31,669 --> 01:44:29,840
evidence for that the

3350
01:44:34,149 --> 01:44:31,679
evidence that we have and again it's the

3351
01:44:36,870 --> 01:44:34,159
same way of the only way we know

3352
01:44:38,550 --> 01:44:36,880
if you're depressed and then we put you

3353
01:44:39,990 --> 01:44:38,560
through a meditation program and it

3354
01:44:40,790 --> 01:44:40,000
changes your life and you live a

3355
01:44:43,830 --> 01:44:40,800
different life

3356
01:44:46,390 --> 01:44:43,840
the only way we have david is to ask you

3357
01:44:48,070 --> 01:44:46,400
we can do a battery of tests before but

3358
01:44:49,510 --> 01:44:48,080
physiologically that's out the window

3359
01:44:50,390 --> 01:44:49,520
it's really just your subjective

3360
01:44:52,870 --> 01:44:50,400
experience

3361
01:44:54,310 --> 01:44:52,880
so we now have that data for people

3362
01:44:55,669 --> 01:44:54,320
who've had a near-death experience and

3363
01:44:57,830 --> 01:44:55,679
we can see

3364
01:44:59,510 --> 01:44:57,840
how they've responded to those questions

3365
01:45:01,430 --> 01:44:59,520
but we can also kind of see

3366
01:45:03,750 --> 01:45:01,440
how they measure on these and i just did

3367
01:45:04,790 --> 01:45:03,760
an interview with uh dr jeffrey long who

3368
01:45:06,870 --> 01:45:04,800
has all this data

3369
01:45:08,550 --> 01:45:06,880
from a social science standpoint take

3370
01:45:12,229 --> 01:45:08,560
like fear of death

3371
01:45:15,270 --> 01:45:12,239
fear of death goes from 70 to being

3372
01:45:16,629 --> 01:45:15,280
the the primary fear that people have to

3373
01:45:18,709 --> 01:45:16,639
13

3374
01:45:21,270 --> 01:45:18,719
after they have a near-death experience

3375
01:45:22,229 --> 01:45:21,280
there is nothing in the social science

3376
01:45:24,790 --> 01:45:22,239
literature

3377
01:45:25,750 --> 01:45:24,800
that would come anywhere close to that

3378
01:45:29,510 --> 01:45:25,760
there's no

3379
01:45:32,470 --> 01:45:29,520
anything that would

3380
01:45:32,950 --> 01:45:32,480
so there is data there but we seem to

3381
01:45:34,470 --> 01:45:32,960
want to

3382
01:45:35,990 --> 01:45:34,480
turn a blind eye to it and kind of say

3383
01:45:37,510 --> 01:45:36,000
well we can't really

3384
01:45:40,950 --> 01:45:37,520
use that data the same way we use all

3385
01:45:44,870 --> 01:45:43,750
yeah i know i i i suspect there are

3386
01:45:48,149 --> 01:45:44,880
physiological

3387
01:45:49,030 --> 01:45:48,159
uh explanations for this right so any

3388
01:45:53,430 --> 01:45:49,040
organism

3389
01:45:55,590 --> 01:45:53,440
they're when they're really in a

3390
01:45:57,669 --> 01:45:55,600
near-death situation probably gets a

3391
01:46:00,070 --> 01:45:57,679
release a tremendous release of uh

3392
01:46:00,870 --> 01:46:00,080
you know dmt no they've they've been an

3393
01:46:04,390 --> 01:46:00,880
endorphins

3394
01:46:06,149 --> 01:46:04,400
they've studied i mean it's just

3395
01:46:08,070 --> 01:46:06,159
they've looked at all that i mean bruce

3396
01:46:10,310 --> 01:46:08,080
grace in university of virginia

3397
01:46:12,870 --> 01:46:10,320
a handbook of of near-death experiences

3398
01:46:15,830 --> 01:46:12,880
200 peer-reviewed papers at this time

3399
01:46:18,310 --> 01:46:15,840
pin von lammel cardiologist i mean there

3400
01:46:19,590 --> 01:46:18,320
are so many david so many peer-reviewed

3401
01:46:20,950 --> 01:46:19,600
studies where they've studied that in

3402
01:46:22,709 --> 01:46:20,960
the cardiac arrest

3403
01:46:24,149 --> 01:46:22,719
ward where from a physiological

3404
01:46:25,350 --> 01:46:24,159
standpoint they can measure all those

3405
01:46:27,270 --> 01:46:25,360
things

3406
01:46:28,790 --> 01:46:27,280
they've measured them the best they can

3407
01:46:30,950 --> 01:46:28,800
none of those uh

3408
01:46:32,950 --> 01:46:30,960
last gasp of a dying brain things they

3409
01:46:36,790 --> 01:46:32,960
just don't hold up to scrutiny

3410
01:46:38,390 --> 01:46:36,800
yeah yeah yeah well yeah i mean okay

3411
01:46:40,390 --> 01:46:38,400
i mean i'm like i say i'm open to that

3412
01:46:42,229 --> 01:46:40,400
except except it seems then you're

3413
01:46:43,669 --> 01:46:42,239
firmly in a dualist camp if you're

3414
01:46:45,830 --> 01:46:43,679
accepting this because now you've got

3415
01:46:46,229 --> 01:46:45,840
something a non-physical thing of which

3416
01:46:48,229 --> 01:46:46,239
is

3417
01:46:49,669 --> 01:46:48,239
you your mind or your soul or your

3418
01:46:52,390 --> 01:46:49,679
spirit which is going

3419
01:46:53,990 --> 01:46:52,400
up into space somewhere coming back down

3420
01:46:55,109 --> 01:46:54,000
into a new person to an animal or

3421
01:46:57,430 --> 01:46:55,119
whatever

3422
01:46:59,109 --> 01:46:57,440
i mean that you know so okay you gotta

3423
01:47:00,950 --> 01:46:59,119
you gotta buy in all the way you can't

3424
01:47:02,550 --> 01:47:00,960
can't go half-assed on this you buy into

3425
01:47:04,709 --> 01:47:02,560
a whole duelist scheme

3426
01:47:06,629 --> 01:47:04,719
and all the all the typical problems

3427
01:47:09,109 --> 01:47:06,639
that have been around for 500 years

3428
01:47:11,270 --> 01:47:09,119
about how to explain how dualism even

3429
01:47:13,189 --> 01:47:11,280
makes how it's coherent

3430
01:47:15,109 --> 01:47:13,199
i i guess that's that's the trade-off

3431
01:47:16,709 --> 01:47:15,119
right it's not it's not just a good news

3432
01:47:18,470 --> 01:47:16,719
story you got you got a boatload of

3433
01:47:19,430 --> 01:47:18,480
problems if you want to sort of accept

3434
01:47:21,510 --> 01:47:19,440
the duelist

3435
01:47:22,470 --> 01:47:21,520
uh story that that's all i would say at

3436
01:47:24,149 --> 01:47:22,480
this point right

3437
01:47:25,830 --> 01:47:24,159
and you are going to have the last word

3438
01:47:28,629 --> 01:47:25,840
on that because you have been

3439
01:47:30,950 --> 01:47:28,639
extremely generous with your time and

3440
01:47:33,750 --> 01:47:30,960
folks our guest has been

3441
01:47:34,950 --> 01:47:33,760
the very excellent and not back down

3442
01:47:37,510 --> 01:47:34,960
from anyone

3443
01:47:38,550 --> 01:47:37,520
dr david scorbina be sure to check out

3444
01:47:41,030 --> 01:47:38,560
his website

3445
01:47:41,910 --> 01:47:41,040
i really really appreciate the fact that

3446
01:47:44,550 --> 01:47:41,920
you uh came

3447
01:47:46,950 --> 01:47:44,560
on you tackled everything head-on yeah

3448
01:47:48,149 --> 01:47:46,960
it's davidskrabina.com if you if it's if

3449
01:47:48,870 --> 01:47:48,159
they're not able to see the actual

3450
01:47:52,629 --> 01:47:48,880
website

3451
01:47:55,270 --> 01:47:52,639
uh so and that is noteworthy because you

3452
01:47:57,030 --> 01:47:55,280
are buried in the google search i mean

3453
01:47:58,790 --> 01:47:57,040
you will not find

3454
01:48:00,870 --> 01:47:58,800
that you better type it into the web

3455
01:48:01,990 --> 01:48:00,880
address because there's a whole bunch of

3456
01:48:04,070 --> 01:48:02,000
other stuff

3457
01:48:05,270 --> 01:48:04,080
that we won't even go with it the good

3458
01:48:06,870 --> 01:48:05,280
news is there's no more of me in the

3459
01:48:08,149 --> 01:48:06,880
whole world so if you find me that's me

3460
01:48:10,310 --> 01:48:08,159
that's there's no other

3461
01:48:11,430 --> 01:48:10,320
day at scrivener's in the whole world so

3462
01:48:14,390 --> 01:48:11,440
that's that's good but

3463
01:48:16,229 --> 01:48:14,400
the cancel culture thing is definitely

3464
01:48:18,629 --> 01:48:16,239
on your back buddy i mean

3465
01:48:19,430 --> 01:48:18,639
there's a target so uh what what can you

3466
01:48:22,709 --> 01:48:19,440
do

3467
01:48:25,830 --> 01:48:22,719
you on thank you very much

3468
01:48:27,430 --> 01:48:25,840
okay alex thank you appreciate it

3469
01:48:28,950 --> 01:48:27,440
thanks again to david scobina for

3470
01:48:31,750 --> 01:48:28,960
joining me today on skeptico

3471
01:48:33,590 --> 01:48:31,760
the one question i'd have to tee up is

3472
01:48:35,910 --> 01:48:33,600
what do you think about the unabomber

3473
01:48:37,510 --> 01:48:35,920
serial killer or singularity

3474
01:48:39,270 --> 01:48:37,520
whistleblower

3475
01:48:41,510 --> 01:48:39,280
let me know your thoughts check out the

3476
01:48:42,790 --> 01:48:41,520
skeptical forum fewer and fewer people

3477
01:48:46,310 --> 01:48:42,800
there but that's okay

3478
01:48:47,910 --> 01:48:46,320
be the one who reignites it or track me

3479
01:48:50,470 --> 01:48:47,920
down any way you like

3480
01:48:51,109 --> 01:48:50,480
lots more to come until next time take

3481
01:48:59,840 --> 01:48:51,119
care

3482
01:49:06,920 --> 01:48:59,850
bye for now